OldGreyEagle

Then dont sign the skill off until the scout shows he knows the skill. How do you do that? That depends on the skill but no matter how well a scout learns a skill, if its not used, it will evaporate Gold Winger, also gone from the 1960's skill set is "stalking" (insert topical comment here) If you have 5 BOR in a row and the scouts cant tie the knots requested, regardless of the rules, then the answer isnt as much to fail the scout for the rank as much as to examine the place of knot tieing in the troop.

I am not sure I have ever masteres the inverted klubel hitch, but if I wanted to, I would try to tie it at every opportunity I could. Scouts who learn a skill, get signed off on it and never ever use it again will surely not know that skill at some time in the future, some earlier than others. However, if the Troops program is such that the ability to tie an inverted klubel hitch is important, the need to tie it or the opportunity to tie is consistently presented to them, guess what? You will have a troop full of competent Inverted klubel hitch tiers. Teaching a scout a skill and then never presenting them with an opportunity to "do" that skill does nothing for the scout except teach im that scouting skills are superfluous and really not all that important. Use those skills and they become part of the scout

I am not sure I have ever masteres the inverted klubel hitch, but if I wanted to, I would try to tie it at every opportunity I could. Scouts who learn a skill, get signed off on it and never ever use it again will surely not know that skill at some time in the future, some earlier than others. However, if the Troops program is such that the ability to tie an inverted klubel hitch is important, the need to tie it or the opportunity to tie is consistently presented to them, guess what? You will have a troop full of competent Inverted klubel hitch tiers. Teaching a scout a skill and then never presenting them with an opportunity to "do" that skill does nothing for the scout except teach im that scouting skills are superfluous and really not all that important. Use those skills and they become part of the scout

I beleive the Hippy Dippy Weatherman with all the hippy dippy weather man was done by George Carlin who still wants to apologize to the former citizens of Sioux City, Iowa who were caught nappin'

Way long ago in the suburbs of Chicago I was in Troop 65 sponsored by Holy Ghost Church in Wood Dale. We had a very active and agressive high adventure minded scoutmaster that had such an exciting program that the number of scouts in the Troop was capped at 65, as a token to our Troop number. To be a member of the Troop not only did the scout have to be active, I forget the parameters, I can tell you I met them and more, at least one parent of the scout had to be active as either an asst scoutmaster or a committee member. We had a waiting list of kids who wanted in the troop so the rules were followed. Parents were active and a dynamite program ensued. As a scout in the late 60's I went to the Grand Canyon and Glacier National Park. The Troop also bicycled from Chicago to FLorida one year, I was in COllege and couldnt make the trip. Parents/Volunteers are always needed. How and what they do will be varied but they are needed.

During my life I have met many people, very few of whom would describe themselves as "amoral" however, quite a few others may do so. Very few people will tell you they are not moral, "nice" people though a mountain of evidence may be to the contrary. Even "The Fonz", who disregarded middle American values lived by the "Fonzarelli Code", which in its heart was quite decent. LH, if life is sacred and taking it is wrong, then if confronted with a choice of taking the life of an other who wants me dead or allowing myself to be killed do I not honor my life by ending the others'? Why must I deprive myself of my life because another chooses to take it? What is the best result? That we both die? It wasn't my idea in the first place(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

SO Luke, Han, Leia and the Rebel Alliance were the bad guys! Who knew?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

You play the game to win Herm Edwards I think Jean-Jacques Rousseau in "The Social Contract" explains it best. A collection of individuals comes together to form a community for the purpose of a goal. The individuals see the need to at times sublimate their personal desires for the good of the community and eventually themselves. Values and behavior are formed by the community, usually to ensure survival and order within the community. Thus, while theft of property of a member of the same community would be considered wrong, theft of property of a competing community would not. In the first Star Wars movie, episode 4 I beleive, the rebels have stolen the plans for the Death Star, This is private property, clearly stolen, and yet the rebels are the good guys and use the stolen plans to destroy the Death Star and strike a blow against the Empire (Loud Applause here) We are members of multiple communities. We may be members of a Church, A political party, hobby group, Citizen of the USA and Citizen of the world. Some communities we elect to join while others are thrust upon us. Most of the times being a member of multiple communties is not a problem, but at times, the goals may conflict. A Church's view may oppose a political parties view, that which is in a country's best self-interest may not be viwed the same by other citizens of the world. We as individuals need to determine what it is we want and then work within a community to accomplish it. If the heart of the matter is if there such a thing as absolute morality the answer is there is not. Murder is wrong, I think most, if not all here would say killing another is wrong, then again, self defense is ok. Soldiers in a war zone kill. Therefore the taking of a life is ok, depending on the circumstance. Theft is wrong, theft of a terrorist plan to kill others is good intel. But somehow I dont think thats what we were talking about back in June 2002 when this thread started and it's not now either. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I am on record as saying I don't think life would end as we know it if gays were accepted in the BSA. However, I do not want anyone, be they the Federal Court system, a special interest group, or anyone else tell me what I must do. That may be the quintessinal American Value. You can go to Castro Street in San Francisco and hear heterosexuals derisively called breeders or you could be in a small farming community in Nebraska where being "gay" is as miserable an existence as may be imagined. I am not familiar with German culture in the least. Are the thoughts and political leanings of downtown Berlin the same thoughts and political leanings of the Black Forest? Do the people of the suburbs of Bonn (and I am only thinking they have suburbs in Bonn, I could be wrong) have the same thinking, values of Stuttgart's downtown? The United States is one huge country. I have a reference that says Germany is slightly smaller than our state of Montana, and while huge, Montana is not one of our three largest states.

First off, a Bad Eagle Scout is never responsible for earning Eagle. It is the unit that allowed this to happen who is responsible. If the scout is a bully, mean and otherwise not nice, waiting for the rank advancement scoutmaster conference to address the problem is not appropriate. The offending behavior is to be addresed as soon as possible. If a scout is not performing his POR, then he is to be removed from it. Not capriciously, but after a series of discussions with scout and eventually parents concerning expected behavior. If the scout is making and effort and struggles, then by all means work with the scout, but do not allow a scout to skate through. I am not sure I understand about mean bullying Eagles, how did they receive the Life rank? Star Rank? When did they get mean and become a bully? Sometimes I think people get the type of troop they deserve

First off, a Bad Eagle Scout is never responsible for earning Eagle. It is the unit that allowed this to happen who is responsible. If the scout is a bully, mean and otherwise not nice, waiting for the rank advancement scoutmaster conference to address the problem is not appropriate. The offending behavior is to be addresed as soon as possible. If a scout is not performing his POR, then he is to be removed from it. Not capriciously, but after a series of discussions with scout and eventually parents concerning expected behavior. If the scout is making and effort and struggles, then by all means work with the scout, but do not allow a scout to skate through. I am not sure I understand about mean bullying Eagles, how did they receive the Life rank? Star Rank? When did they get mean and become a bully? Sometimes I think people get the type of troop they deserve

If I were free to change Wood Badge, the first item I would add would be a brief outline of the History of Wood Badge, from the initial course requirements at Gilwell to the current curriculum. Then, I would emphasize that the Wood Badge course has had many changes and doubtless will have many more and that the true spirit of Wood Badge is to support the Program and its leaders who are trying to improve the program by taking the course. In a more strident mood I may even propose any Wood Badger who denigrates the current curriculum should lose their beads as anyone who is so unscoutlike as to deride another's accomplishment because they happen to take the "wrong" version of Wood Badge has completely lost sight of the intent of the program. I would be sure that participants knew what the program was about. It will not make a master outdoorsman of you, or outdoorswoman either. It is a program to give a scouter skills necessary to improve scouting at that persons level. Whether its as a scoutmaster, a cubmaster, a district commisioner or whatever. It is about finding other people, just like you, that think enough about the program to make a committment to better the program. And this may be anathema to some, but I would have a 2.5 hour pre course meeting on the ticket process and give examples as what is a good ticket item and why and what is not a good ticket item. With all the secrecy about the ticket, I think it becomes more overwhelming than is roductive.

Ah, but what if I started the GreyEagle Paintball & Laser Rangers? Anyone interested? All laser tag indoors, all paintball outdoors. No organization is perfect, in fact if I found one that didnt have somethings I disagreed with, I would check to be sure I wasnt in a trance in a cult somewhere mixing grape kool aid But, just because I disagree with a BSA policy does not mean I dont follow it

Yeah Pack, who knows you could have fallen in with a wild bunch of Jesuits (shudder) The Horror, The Horror

I dont suppose you could stay overnight in the museum? Anyone ever try?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

and green tabs

Sorry Gonzo I got many more PMs asking me to close it than I did to keep it open. Besides, its not like their discourse is likely to end anytime soon. I left it open at first as I saw the situation was like a hockey game, and even though fighting is "against the rules" in hockey, every once in awhile the refs let two guys at it for awhile becuse the two just want to do it, they get it out of their system, go in the penalty box and the game goes on. The alternative is to either ban or suspend both of them. The forum has had limited success at suspension and based on past posters who have been banned neither of the two come close to that level of behavior.

I used to be a Bear, and a good old Bear, too! But now I'm finished Bearing I don't know what to do. I'm growing old and feeble, and I can bare no more So I'm going to work my Ticket if I can! Back to Gilwell, Happy Land! I'm going to work my ticket if I can

I wasnt asking for specific numbers, over here it seems the local news section of the paper is full of lawsuits concerning sex abuse cases whether by religious leaders, scout leaders, sports coaches or school teachers and the lawsuits that follow. I was wondering if Germany had the same reaction that our society has.

Volker, how many sex abuse lawsuits do you see in your newspapers concerning underage children?

So the boy scouts will have tan shirts with muted green tabs and Venturers have green shirts with bright green tabs and that will help distinguish between the programs so much better than the red and green tabs do now

it is usually only for Summer Camp Directors, however, while planning Council Venturing Activities we kept getting stymied by having events at the Council Camps and not being able to use the rifle range because we didnt have qualified personnel. So, I decided to become one. I looked around and NRA certification is not cheap, between registration costs and driving hither thither and yon to get the right classes. Then I thought, as a Camp School Trained Shooting Sports Director, I could be the qualified person. I took Camp School at Hawk Mountain and got NRA certified in Rifle, Shotgun and Muzzleloading and certified in Archery as well. I had to pay for it and have to have the Council Exec sign my application but that part was easy. I got four certifications and a week of summer camp, it was great!

Lots of caveats here, it is a study published by the BSA, but it was done by Harris International, but yet... http://www.1bsa.org/applications/documentlibrary/Values.pdf Good stuf to read about though

I was in Cub Scouts at whatever age you started Cub Scouts in the early 60's. My mother was a Den Mother. I crossed over to Boy Scouts and earned Eagle. I have commented before there was a time when we didnt wear our field uniform for about 24 months, it was the suburbs of Chicago and after the 68 Democratic Convention being a boy scout was fodder for a pounding. But, while a boy scout met the Charter Organization Rep. HE was a friend of my father but I never realized how cool he was. He taught me Green Grow the Rushes Ho and a few other camp favorites. His name was Melvin Brockman. Then my son started Cub Scouts and issues with my job kept me from being really active, but then when he crossed over to Boy Scouts I had more time. At first I thought I would just help out and not wear the uniform, just be a concerned. That didnt last long. So, I have been an Assistant Scoutmaster, Unit Committee member, District Advancement Chair, Council Venturing CHair, ADC for Venturing and Venturing Trainer. When I look back, I think about Mr Brockman, the first adult I ever met who was cool.

C'est la vie !