OldGreyEagle

I think the Most Estemmed Royal Benevolent and Protective Order of Ilks of the United States of America would be a good start

Since umarried sex would seem to be against Scoutings values, what is wrong with considering Boy Scouts to be asexual? With a fairly large troop, (50 to 95 members) over the past 10 years I am sure we have had "gay" boy scouts. I don't know who they were, but the odds are they were there or are there now. I really don't care. Discussions of sexuality have no place around the campfire. If a scout comes to an adult alone and has questions, well that is another matter and one that has all sorts of concerns and I have to beleive the adult approached will handle it well. How do you train for those questions? I have no idea. I know with the Crew we have coed campouts, things seem to be ok, I guess since there havent been an explosion of pregnant female Crew members, things are going well. Does that mean there arent antedotal stories of pregnant female Crew members or leaders? Well, I cant say that, but no more than stories of Scoutmasters who molested their charges. I know we pretty much get the behavior from youth we expect. I think if the BSA went with local option, saying any leader the CO approves as a leader is fine AS LONG AS the CO is on the hook for any liability that the leader may incur, we may see a tad more interested CO's.

Training is not enough but its tough to deliver the promise when you dont know what the promise is

If one of the 8 methods, all equal, can be viewed as not required, then what is required? There are many ways a youth could be taught to make ethical decisions over the course of their lifetime, and if the methods are not required why bother with any of them?

So, as Ed has so adroitly pointed out, the uniform is not required and he is right, it isn't. The uniform is one of the 8 methods of scouting and if the uniform is not required, are any of the other 7 required? If the patrol method is not required, why do we get new members seeking how to move their troop from being troop based to patrol based? Why do we care if the Troop teaches merit badges and shortcuts Adult Association? Indeed, if the BSA program is as open and flexible as some proclaim it to be, why do we have people comming to the forum for answers? Why is not our answer tactfully there is no answer, there are no rules, if your CO says its fine and the COuncil recharters you every year why do we care about what could be termed minutia? We have been told there are basically no rules for BSA insurnace, it covers you virtually no matter what, why is there such angst about getting the program right? Why not let Boards of Review grill scouts for hours over a requirement 3 ranks back? What is the harm if thats the way the CO wants it done? Why do we seek answers if there are no questions?

The question that initiated this thread was: "What leeway do I have for saying this kid has met the requirement to the best of his ability?" I see the responses given as the advice that was solicited.

So Nessmuk, you have associated scoutmomma with a whole bunch of things here, from moral decline to the communists of the 50's. I didnt connect the dots the first time, so you will have to do so for me. And I am sure others would appreciate it as well. THen again I may be the only one not seeing it, so if others want to help me out understanding it thats fine as well

I think that something we have to remember is that as a volunteer organization, we will always mirror the attitudes of the societies and cultures that produced us and where we reside. That doesnt mean Scouters behavior will change as fast as the latest flavor of the month, but as societies attitudes change, then the BSA will change because membership is not stagnant, people come, and go and while change may occur over decades, change does occur

In some areas of our District, Scoutreach has had a rocky relationship with the traditional units. The first issue is the Council has a Scoutreach District that didnt communicate well with the other Districts, while that is better now, it certainly could be improved. Then Scoutreach units have Pack and Troop meetings after school with paid scoutmasters and cubmasters. This lead to the demise of several traditional Packs and Troops. The Scoutreach units offered the scouting program after school and transportation was provided. Now, how does a traditional unit compete with that? The parents dont have to worry about getting kids to a pack meeting or a troop meeting, the kids are already at school and then they get transported home. The adult leaders tend to be teachers in the school who the kids already know and the adults know the kids. Then, the Scoutreach leaders are paid for their time. This caused quite a stir one year. A scouter from a traditional unit wanted to send a positive notice to the scoutreach units and have the District pay for the leaders of the Scoutreach units to attend the annual Council Dinner. One scouter strenously objected as he put it the Scoutreach adult leaders were already getting paid to do scouting and would be paid to attend the council dinner and couldnt they afford to pay the fee themselves. Until then, I didnt know scoutreach leaders were paid. The Scoutreach units have top of the line equipment available to them donated by businesses in the area that traditional troops do not and a huge portion of the Councils budget is spent on the Scoutreach units. Now, I agree with the mission of Scoutreach, to provide a Scouting opportunity to youth who wouldnt otherwise have that chance, yet it comes with effects on the traditional program that cannot be ignored, much as the Council tries.

Then again, George Washington shares his birthday with another person very close to most of us here. A person who did great works for the youth of the world. Of course I am talking about Olave Baden-Powell nee St Clair Soames.

I was the one who took the offending words out and now you ask if I agree with Nessmuk? I was trying to explain, obviously poorly, that while I will edit a post, I try not to edit often, that is all. How that becomes I agree with Nessmuk I am not sure, but I dont agree with Nessmuks assertion about your attitudes on homosexuality

Indeed I did not want that link on the forum or the name of the association that owns the website. We have experimented here that if you mention the word Llama enough, we get ads for Llamas. If we talk about that association, then we may get ads for that assoiciation or targeted products and I dont want that. I do think it very interesting that a person who holds views contrary to anothers can be accused of holding similar views with the antithesis of the scouting movement I try very hard not to edit posts and sometimes feel I let too much go because I want to be fair to free speech and will error on the side of being too lenient than strict.

Joe, check out the BSA publication 33088 Advancement Committee Guide, Policies and Procedues and read the chapter "Advanement for Youth with Special Needs" and then talk to your District Advancement Chair. I think this is the current rules: http://www.meritbadge.com/info/policy5.htm(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I am not sure every post has been read, so I will repeat some of my first post. I remember when I stuck up against the neighborhood bully, I punched him square in the nose and he oddly enough didnt go down or crying off to his mother. He came at me with full force fury that left me with a split lip and a black eye and the experience not to stand up to him anymore. I understand that sometimes the bully backs down, but I would caution adults who encourage their charges to punch the bully have a Plan B if the bully goes medival on the kids behind.

The high schools in the area I reside still have rifle teams. Most are well populated with Eagles or soon to be Eagles. The point Le Voyageur makes is quite true. I have often thought that the reason school shootings occur in suburban areas and rural areas and university's is because the shooter has little chance of facing return fire. This may explain why there aren't school shootings in LA, Detroit, Chicago, New York, etc

I guess Arnold's charactor in the first Terminator movie could be considered a cyber bully as well. I see the argument now, that T-F should concentrate on skills development. Knots, campsite selection, cooking, all scouty things. I guess the adding of how to handle Bullies "could" be seen as a skill as neccessary today as was making fire in years past. Then again, in years past bullies were certainly present so the emphasis on bullies today is new. So, we have a clash, a Culture War one could say about what the requirements for T-F should be. Will they continue to be outdoor skill oriented or could the requirments also cover the necessary skills required of todays youth.

Heck, I remember schoolyard bullies in first, second and third grade. I didnt have any trouble identifying them, they were the ones who knocked me over and generally made fun of my cub scout uniform and den mother mom. The neighborhood had a bully, big guy who terrorized all the kids. I remember the day I stood up to him, cost me a busted lip, a black eye and generally a lot of pain. I guess he wasnt a bully, but a quickly developing sociopath. I refrained from standing up to him from that point. Perhaps the idea is to educate the youth that being bullied is not the natural order of things, well, perhaps it is the natural order of things, it was where I grew up, but that its not supposed to be the natural order of things. Heck, I just had a thought strike me, Ed doesnt think there should be Anti-Bullying requirements, the BSA does. Does this constitute a Culture War? Pitting that which is against what BSA wants?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

So, what would you like to see in a Boy Scout Video Game? You know, one in which a fully uniformed scout (and his buddy) swim rivers, climb mountains, provide first aid to drive by shooting victims, start fires without matches, plan a camporee (ala the Sims) clean up waterways, contruct a monket bridge and all manner of things scouty! Sort of an If you Cant beat them, join them

I think it was near Winder Georgia, then again it could have been in the Florida Panhandle. I learned a long time ago when I order Ice Tea to say, Unsweetened Please which I know is akin to walking around with a big ol' "Yankee" sign on my forehead (no, I didnt take steroids, ever) Is not Culture War a part of our history? When the original colonies got together you had Culture Wars. You have an Agarian culture in the southern colonies who didnt necesarily mess well with the more Industrial North (and this was in the Revolutionary times no less). Not all the colonies were formed by the same country, the Dutch of New York didnt mesh well with the English and then the Catholics of Baltimore and Maryland were not well regarded by the Puritans. There were Culture Wars. During the 1800's the Culture Wars continues, as the country expanded westward, the more civilized "East Coast" clashed with the pioneers and there were competing priorities. Of course the Civil War/War of Northern Agression/War Between the States was the ultimate culture clash on a scale not nearly approached until the 1960's. The end of the 19th Century saw huge immigration and each ethnic group took its turn as the lowest of the low. Signs of Help Wanted had the tag line, "Irish Need Not Apply". The Irish were shut out of muncipal jobs, but now the Irish cop is a given. Each group brought their own traditions and cultures to the US. The Germans gave us the Christmas Tree. Each group changed the way things were done. As the 20th Century developed there was movement from the farms to the cities and again Culture changed. During the prohibition, CUlture REALLY changed. OK, today alchohol is ok and legal, tomorrow it isnt but just wait, soon it will be back. Was it not the culture of the era that caused that to happen? There was a time was cocaine was part of the pause that refreshes, marijuana was sold legally, was it not culture that made these substances illegal? I remember hard liquor being sold on TV as well as Edie Adams singing about cigars, these are no longer on TV, it was a culture war that took them off the air. The 1968 Democratic Convention was a clash of Cultures, youth and change versus the way things were. Change in the country's culture has been constant (irony anyone?) So, you dont think Scouting, starting in 1910 was never a part of a Culture War? In the greatest movie ever made, Whitey refers to Troop 1 Hickory as a bunch of daisy pickin' momma's boys. And was prior to WWII. In the 1960's, the BSA was under attack much more than today and it was the youth attacking it. It wasnt the coolest thing in the world to be an Eagle Scout in 1969, even though I have the Eagle Card with Nixon's signature on it. I remember when a Cub Scout proclaimed he was "square", which would never have made Maynard G Krebs very happy. The term square was dropped from Cub Scouts because of the Culture War at the time. Cultures change as nothing is static, an institution can change without compromising its values if its members beleive in those values. At some point during this election cycle, I have no doubts that some candidate will proclaim, if he/she already hasnt, that this is the most important election in this generation, just as 2004, 2000, 1998, 1994, 1990 all were. Sometimes we need to reject hyperbole and discuss matters that actually matter

Interesting point there Pack. Like I said, I have traveled extensively in the south for many years. The sight of the Auto Junkyard with the Stars and Bars prominently displayed became common. After 9/11, I noticed a twist, I saw one place with the Stars and Stripes displayed and a banner underneath that read, We will never forget and then on the other side of the gate was the Stars and Bars and the banner, The South will Rise Again. Cant tell if that is a mixed message or regional pride. I do need a clarifying point, Pork Chop Hill refers to two battles in The Korean War, the good guys won the first one and didnt the second, so when its mentioned the "Culture War" involves the BSA and Pork Chop Hill, which battle are we talking about?

So, no member of the BSA could be Lberal? Or a Democrat? Is that what is being said? Pack, I do a lot of travel in the South, I know, as I have been told, it ain't over yet

And Gern, that is different than now how?

And if the courts found against the ACLU how long would they continue to file? And how does one hide behind a legal barricade? If someone takes my stuff and wont give it back, am I hiding behind a legal barricade to call the police and report a theft? Should I take matters in my own hands and take back what is mine? I guess that would be more manly than allowing the legal system to work. We either follow all laws and are civilized, or we pick and choose what laws we will follow. And if we choose civil disobediance, as did Thoreau, then we subject ourselves to the punishment dealt without whimper

Beavah, you are going to have to show me where the ACLU ever went after a private home that had Christmas Lights on it.

Beavah, that has to be one of the most disrespectful posts of yours in a long time. You know very well a yamaka is a Jewish term, the word you were searching for is Miter, the Bishop hat and as I am not now nor have I ever been a bishop I would not have had an occasion to wear a miter in the church. And the Knights of Columbus is an organization closley associated with the Catholic Church which has its own traditions and is not part of the usual behavior. If you feel need to point out my perceived errors, go right ahead, but keep the slams of my religious beliefs out of it. I would think a person who preaches being couteous to others would taken a diferent approach.