OldGreyEagle

When you change health plans and when you meet your doctor for the first time you have a desparate desire to chide him for dressing up in the "real" doctors clothes

My Boyce, I do not wish to pick apart your post, but you wrote "... I think generally the idea of going outside, camping and hiking, knowing about the natural world around us, just doesn't have much vibrancy with most youth..." Yet most junior high kids and above will tell you with a straight face that global warming caused by humans is killing polar bears. So, there is awareness of the environment, and as far as going outside, have you seen the attraction of the "X" games? There are kids who want to test the limits of their abilites. The question is how to attract those youth to the best program designed to test limits and expand them.

The Cub Scout Slogan is: Do Your Best At first I posted only the above and then it hit me, I dont wish to have anybody think I an denigrating the Cub Program. I think what we ask of a 7-10 year old is a heck of a lot different than a 14-18 year old. In the preteens, we ask that a boy give his dead solid best effort and whatever that is, its ok. When they get into the ranks of Star, Life and Eagle, we expect a level of performance, the bar is set at do, not try. Of course to reach that level, it may take the work of the scoutmaster and the youth working together I dont want to leave the impression I was belittling the Cub program, if that is how I came across, I apologize(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

So, how many Scouters does it take to change a light bulb? Five One changes the light bulb and the other four talk about how good the old one was, how the new one will never live up to the performance of the old one and that, in fact, even the one being replaced was no match to its predecessor The only thing constant is change

You know, I have in my thread: "I know we are talking about serving actively in a position of responsibility, but in the interest of full disclosure I copied the entire answer. It is the last two sentences that is the cruz of the matter I beleive" Of course, now I see it should have been crux, not cruz, but what could I have done to make it more obvious that I was talking about the the last two sentences of the passage?, the part that says: "However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." I presented that so NJBaldeagle could see that ASM1 was wrong, that holding a position is more than filling a spot on paper. If indeed we dont hold youth leadership accountable, what are we teaching?

NJ. check the following: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/GuideforMeritBadgeCounselors/RankAdvanceFAQ.aspx especially where it says: "Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined? Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if: He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current). He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on). The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position. I know we are talking about serving actively in a position of responsibility, but in the interest of full disclosure I copied the entire answer. It is the last two sentences that is the cruz of the matter I beleive. It clearly indicatesif the boy is not fulfiling his reponsibilities, he is to be removed from the position. That is the telling line, if he is not doing the job, then the BSA is encouraging you to "fire" him, he doesnt get to be called Quartermaster if he doesnt do the job. Now the sticky part. Beavah thinks (and if I am wrong, Beavah, I apologize but I think I have this down)if the boy takes 4 months to get the hang of the job, then it really isnt fair to the rest of the guys who picked it up after the Scoutmaster orientation meeting to sign them all off at 6 months so Beavah thinks that the boy should stay in the Quartermaster position for another well, say 4 months, so all scouts are treated the same and the troop has functioning quartermasters. The issue becomes, if the scout stays 6 months in the position, one could argue that since he has been in the POR he has completed his time and shouldnt have to spend any more time there. If the scoutmaster conferences have been documented chroniculing the scoutmaster's efforts to bring the youth up to acceptable performance, there is no problem with continuing the POR for another 4 months. If you dont do anything, then you may have a problem. Your ASM1 is not entirely correct, just holding a space on a sheet of paper does not a Quartermaster make, he has to serve actively. That has to be determined upfront and the scout has to do it. if he doesnt, then he doesnt get credit, and your documentation will hold up to any appeal that is made.

I beleive Yoda said it best, or Mr Miyagi, I get confused There is no try, only do or do not Cub Scouts ask that you do your best, in Boy Scouts you do, or don't

Just so we aren't arguing semantics, the Advancement requirements are for the scout to "serve actively" for a specific time period. I don't know if meaningful and "serve actively" mean the same thing, but I will be using the phrase "serve Actively". I believe as the troop officers, the SPL and ASPL should indeed have a role in the process of how active a scout is working at his Position of Responsibility. The SPL/ASPL should know if the Quartermaster(s) have the gear packed, available in good shape, etc. The SPL/ASPL should know if when requested the Instructors are giving good instructions. My only caution is that this is not done once every 4 or six months. This should be a monthly duty/ Waiting until the 5.5 month mark to tell a scout he wont be getting his 6 months POR credit is a disservice to him and the troop. The Scoutmaster may be the one to determine if the POR was done, but input from the youth leaders certainly would help.

Well, it appears that tagguy had two responses on the day he first posted, and that was January 19, 2008. He hasn't revisited this thread so I don't know if the first two responses gave him the information he needed, but he has posted in other threads since then. The troop I serve has a long history of working with disabled youth. from the recently aged out Eagle with MS to the youth with MS from Russia and Aspergers patients as well. On another front, at one time we had so many youth on Ritalin we figured it would be better to mix it with the bug juice to help the adults as well. The key is finding the right troop. Now, I admit, I am in a special troop. But not a special needs troop. Our Committee Chair is a Pediatrician and she thinks the world of the BSA program. She feels it is just the place for her patients with MS, Auspergers, ADHD and a few others as well. My son is 24, and came through the troop, he is dyslexic, ADHD and has to urinate through a stoma on his abdomen and wear a urinary drainage bag at night (but then again, he never has to get up to answer a nature call) Youth find a place in our troop because we have adults who are committed to making a place for them. its not always easy to be referred to as the retard troop because we have two kids in walkers and a few others that have a tendency to act out in almost any situation, but the kids know we form a community where they can be themselves. The normal (such as they are, who is, or what is normal anyway?) kids have some issues at times adjusting to the behavior, but we see it as learning to adopt to those different from you, a skill required in adult life that isnt all that easy to appreciate, unless you need it. All youth are welcomed into the unit and we will work with any youth (and here comes the big but) as long as the youth's parents are willingly to work with us. We have some skill sets in the troop that are unique, the pediatrician, the Physicians Assistant and a couple of RN's, but the parents have to help as well. Together we form a partnership to give the boy the best experience possible. Unfortunately we recently had a failure. An Asperger's boy was asked to leave the troop because he couldnt control his violent outbursts and was putting others at risk. The second time it happened was the last time he was allowed on a trip. We have a responsibility to the others boys as well. It was a tough decision, but he could not be trusted not to act up. I wouldnt say the BSA program is at fault as much as it takes a special blend of volunteers to make a good scouting experience for a youth. It may be said any scouting unit is a mix of special people, and I do not dispute that, but it does take knowledgeable and willign people to work together and they can be found, but may be looked for. (yes, I know my sentence structure is poor, but it says it)(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

It's not everyday we get a Voltaire reference, John in KC, or should I say "c'est la bonne"

Before we can debate if we have a moral compass, we must define what a moral compass is, then we have to define what is, "is" and then we can start

I always thought it was Internet etiquette to use the call name the person selected.

I have it on reliable authority that John Glenn wanted to be a Boy Scout and a member of the Junior High Rocket club, but the Scoutmaster of the time said unless he devoted all his time to scouts, he couldn't join.

I may not have a good grasp on the term "servant leadership" but I had a Minister scouter explain it to me in these terms "Like when Jesus washed the feet of the apostles"

Can the Committee Chair "fire" the Scoutmaster? Can the Scoutmaster "fire the Committee Chair? Uh, since no one said yes to either, or they should not have said to either, neither "work" for each other, together they present and assure the program is run according to the guidelines. Any unit that gets hung up in who is working for who, or who is over who is wandering a fur piece from the intent of the BSA

Then we agree, it's whatever floats your boat

I think it best to respect every adult's penchant for technology, I can understand those who want to leave it behond, but others may not have that luxury and if it's a choice of a troop not going to camp due to adult leadership issues,WiFi is great.

Eamonn I am not sure if I would ever welcome a crack dealer as a scout. As a 9 year old he was the only source of income in his family? All other siblings were younger than him? I would hope that if I ever would come across such a situation I would be able to put the family in contact with people who could turn the situation around and get the lad out of the crack business and in with positive role models, such as scouts of course but I cannot fathom that he was "forced" into the situation and there was no other alternative route for the family to go down. I may be Pollyanna's younger brother, but I can't buy it

Hey Goldwinger, back off on that Vatican City rant. Not everything that comes from Vatican City is infallible, we can discuss that somewhere else. And BobWhite, I understand what you are saying about the new uniform, its not even out yet and there are cries of derision... But when you say "As I said even if 9 out of 10 people who where this uniform like it that will still leaves thousands whining about it." I dont beleive that is productive at all. One can make a comment without neccesarily be "whining" about it. Such rhetoric only leads to defensive comments where the substance of the issue is lost in the style of the presentation of the argument.

OK, I didnt want to hijack the Beavah's thread. If we assume (I know Ed, I know) that FOS is a fact of life in the BSA, what have units you are or have been associated with done that had the best result, And by result I mean the most participation. I dont mean the most money, the greatest number of people giving? I am not so sure Courts of Honor are the best, but then what is?

Well, if we take a page from Lemuel Siddons, the greatest scoutmaster who never lived, a troop could always have a parents night You know, where he doesnt tie the sheep shank corectly, foreshadowing future tribulations? But even if you have a "parents night" to show what the boys are learning and how the troop operates and end with an FOS presentation, how many parents come back next year? Drizzle Drazzle Drussle Drone, time for this topic to have a thread of its own(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

Sorry guys, but other than "parodon the interruption" in ESPN, I have no idea what PTI means or how it relates in this conversation./ I thought if I waited long enough I could get it in context, but I can't

I guess as a matter of reflection, How is the Chain of Command used? The Troop is on a Campout, you arrive at the site. Does anybody need to tell the scouts to get the equipment out of the vehicles? The PLC determines where the gear will go and where the patrol campsitess will be, (300 feet away from any other patrol I am sure ) And the patrols set up camp. The Patrol Leader doesnt have to bark orders because the boy know what need be done. If its a first or second campout then perhaps helpful suggestions are required but one neednt come across like Sgt Frank Rock of Easy Company to get things done. Then after Camp is set up, the already worked on Duty Roster is posted and everyone knows what their reponsibilities are. No one should have to be telling anyone what to do. Ok, that may be out in Fantasy land, but thats how its supposed to work. At meetings, the PLC has a plan, its run according to the plan, who needs to tell anyone what to do? prompting may have to occur as people forget what to do, but really, does that require a chain of command? The PLC have developed the program, the patrol leaders know the schedule, the SPL with the Scoutmaster keep the troop on track.

I understand your sentiment Beavah, but Courts of Honor are when more parents are in attendance than any other time, hence the FOS, Camp Promotion, Popcorn, etc. The COH is a time to directly reach more adults than at any other time I can think of, it may not be a great answer, but its accurate for the unit I serve/

I saw a presentation at an University of Scouting once and it stuck with me. The topic was the Organization of the BSA. The speaker walked in and drew, with audience help, an organizational chart, on a huge writing pad, much as has been discussed. The Institutional Head, the COR, the Committe Chair et al. This ended with the scouts at the bottom. Then he got this big smile and said the chart as drawn was wrong, he flipped over the page and there on the second page was his take. At the top was the scouts, and then the Patrol leader, SPL, Scoutmaster and worked its way back to National HQ at the bottom. The speaker had been a NYLT/JLTC scoutmaster for many a year. Boys come together to form patrols, patrols come together to form Troops, Troops form Districts, Councils etc. Any other way is not how its supposed to be done Anyone not recognizing that the boy member is the most important person in scouting should try to run a program that doesnt interest the target demographic, you fail rather quickly.(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)