OldGreyEagle

I put together the compilation of what the Scouting Handbook says about Scouting Spirit a few years back when BobWhite first mentioned it. What is written in the Handbook is a far cry from what is generally regarded as Scout Spirit in many troops. I keep a few printed pages of what I posted in my portfolio so when scouters ask me about "scouting spirit" as an Advancement Committee member I show them this and ask how their policies and standards mesh with what is written. Many rub their heads, they didnt know this was there, they ask me what they should do, I tell them whatever they think is right

What has sealed my opinion about the OA is how the members react during Camporees or Klondikes. The OA usually runs a station, staffed by youth of course. When you visit the OA station, it is literally over run with youth standing around, talking, carrying on and pretty much making fun of the scouts in the competition, competition that they are not in, because they are staffing the station. I thought the first responsibility that an arrowman had was to his troop/patrol and that responsibility would be fulfilled best if the arrowman would give his patrol the benefit of his experience during the competition phase of the event. I see no reason for the OA to staff a competition station unless the disitrct is sorely lacking in Staff, and then only the minimum of people used. Having scouts wanting to aspire to be OA members so they can staff the station and not worry about the activtities is not my idea of honor. And the Adults enable this attitude by allowing the youth to stand around while the adults do the work

the following is what the Boy Scout Handbook says about Scouting Spirit: Tenderfoot Defined p 47 Scout Spirit refers to the effort you make to live up to the ideals of Scouting. The Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan serve as everyday guidelines for a good life. Tenderfoot, Requirement #13 p60 Discuss scout spirit with your scoutmaster and with older boy scouts in your troop. Ask them for examples of how you can demonstrate Scout Spirit . You will likely hear examples of the Scout Oath and Law as ways to show your Scout spirit Second Class Requirement #9 p108 Most requirements for Scout ranks can be measured by other people. When you set out to swim 50 feet for the Second Class swimming requirement, anyone can see that you have covered the distance. How well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, though is something for you to judge. (emphasis added) You know when you are being kind, when you are helpful and a good friend. You know when you are trustworthy. and reverent. You alone know how you act when no one is around to witness what you do. Do the best you can to live each day by the Scout Oath and Law. You might look back on some of the decisions you've made and wish you had acted differently, but you can learn from those moments and promise yourself you will do better in the future. And dont be surprised that when you use the scout oath and law for guidance, others will recognize those values in you and respect you for it. Set high standards for yourself and strive to reach them. No one can ask anymore of you First class Requirement #10 p164 At troop and patrol gatherings you've recited the Scout Oath and the Scout Law dozens of times. The words come easily to you, but do you know what those words mean? The Scout Oath and Scout Law are not just for reciting at meetings. They are not just to be obeyed while you are wearing a uniform. The spirit of Scouting that they represent is every bit as important when you are at home, at school and in your community. The Scout Oath begins with the words, "On my honor. . ." Your honor is your word. By giving your word, you are promising to be of good character and to keep your reputation untarnished. Be trustworthy in all you say and do. Extend friendship to others. Be thrifty with your time and resources. Be tolerant of others, regardless of their differences, and celebrate the great diversity that enriches our nation and the world. Express reverence in accordance with your beliefs. Offer a helping hand because you want to, not because you expect a reward. The standards set by the Scout Oath and Scout Law are very high Strive to reach them every day, and you will find that they become as natural for you to live by as they are for you to say. Star/Life/Eagle p170 BY NOW, DOING GOOD TURNS should be a regular part of your life You are always on the lookout for ways to help others. By now, Be Prepared should describe your efforts to make the most of educational opportunities, get along with others, and take part in outdoor adventures. By now, the Scout Oath and the twelve points of the Scout law should be the guidelines by which you direct your actions in your family, community, church, school, and nation. Living by these high standards is always a personal choice and something only you can fully measure. But by now, many other people should be seeing qualities in you that make it clear you are choosing "Your standing as a Scout does not depend so much on the skills of your hands or the badges an your merit badge sash, as an the spirit in your heart on what you are willing to do for others, on whether you are doing your very best to live the Scout Oath and Law:' This is why BobWhite asks how can others sign off on scouting spirit, what do the requirements say and how does the handbook address it?

In the Guide to Safe Scouting it says: Note: Bold type denotes rules and policies. So, the Guide to Safe Scouting has roles and policies in it. If it was just a guide, then Paintball, parachuting, etc. and everything else on the restricted list would be just a "Guide" and there wouldnt be a paintball issue. Now, in bold print it says: Two-deep leadership.Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. (bolded because it is in the Book) This is found in the section titled Barriers to Abuse In Scouting Then in the section titled Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings Two-deep leadership:Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. (bolded because it is in the Book) Then is struck me, A Venturing Crew need not have a parent along on a trip. outing, or overnight. A Coed overnight Venturing event merely needs a registered BSA member over 21 and a member of the opposite sex over 21

Ceertainly the Mission could be accomplished without the methods. Look at Venturing, it does not list a uniform as a method nor advancement or the Patrol Method. The fact that a Venturing Crew may be Arts & Hobbies, Youth Ministries, Sports or Sea Scouts pretty much takes Outdoors out of the methods list, (Although personally I am not sure how Sea Scouts doesnt qualify for Outdoors) There are many way to develop the charactor, citizenship and personal fitness of today's youth JoePa uses Football, Boy Scouts uses its methods and Venturing its. Listening to B-P speak, you hear he often talks about charactor and citizenship as the primary goals, he talks about camping, but as a fun activity, he wanted charactor and citizenship lessons to be learned in a fun environment.

Holy Inconsistency Batman!!! Under Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings it says: Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA So, on page one it says you need two registered leaders for an outing or a registered leader and a parent of one of the participants but then when talking about Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings, the parent thing is not mentioned. WoW

NWScouter, I have never heard that the other adult had to be a parent or guardian of a youth. Where did you hear that? I am not saying its wrong, only that I have never seen or heard that before. But that doesnt mean it isnt so, just means I missed it

I am sorta surprised here, in the Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures book, #33088, the following describes the Scoutmaster Conference One of the most enjoyable experiences of being a Scoutmaster is the opportunity for a Scout and his leader to sit down and visit together. In large troops, Scoutmasters occasionally assign this responsibility to assistant Scoutmasters or members of the troop committee; but this is unfortunate, because most Scoutmasters feel that this is truly the opportunity to get to know the Scout and help him chart his course in life. A good conference should be unhurried. It helps the Scout evaluate his accomplishments and to set new goals with his Scoutmaster. This can be accomplished at a troop meeting, camping trip, or in the Scout's home. Goal setting by the Scout makes it possible for the Scoutmaster to help the Scout with his weaknesses and encourage him to use his strengths. The Scout (joining) conference is probably one of the most important associations a Scout will have in his Scouting career. It is at this conference that the Scoutmaster illustrates to him the adult-youth relationship that is unique to Scouting. All through the ranks, it is rewarding for the Scoutmaster to observe the Scout grow in responsibility and maturity. It is through this association and example that a young man grows and matures, and the Scoutmaster conference accomplishes that aim. (See Scoutmaster Handbook, chapter 10.) There is no retesting, there is no talk about what did you cook when and how would you treat a comminuted fracture of the femur. Jet, I understand about changing the status quo and how entrenched ideas and traditions can be. Are there any leaders who share your thoughts? Anyone who can help you in the change process? Your Unit Commissioner? ANother Scoutmaster that is respected?

Interesting thing about heart disease, the three main factors, sex, age and family history are three things you can't change Yes, diet and excercise helps, but the top three can't be altered

Jet, what is your Role in the troop?

I don't want to argue as much as get it right. I have "Venturing Leader Specific Training", version 33491D which is the syllabus I follow when I do Venturing Training in the District I serve. In Session Two, titled "Understanding and Protecting Youth" there is a section titled "Protecting Our Youth", its Session 2, Slide 7. The Syllabus has a grey box which tells the instructor what to do, and it says to have copies of the Guide to Safe Scouting on hand and tells the Instructor that the following portions of the Guide to Safe Scouting need to be addressed: Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings Safe Swim Defense Safety Afloat Scuba Camping Guns and Firearms Cave Exploring Climbing and Rappeling Unauthorized and Restricted Activities Transportation Tour Permits I do not see a reference anywhere else in the materials which comment on the adult leadership requirements for a Coed Overnight Venturing Activity. If I am not using the proper materials I need to know. My Venturing Professinal Advisor was the one who furnished me with the materials. Has a new syllabus been published? What is its number?

See, now I have always used the Guide to Safe Scouting when the issue of Co-Ed leadership came up and this is from the Guide to Safe Scouting page 3 "...Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA." As a result, I have been on many over-night Co-Ed Venturing events with a female over 21 who was not a registered leader in the Crew as the Guide to Safe Scouting indicated that only one of the adults need be a registered member of the BSA. Myself and usually 2-3 other males rounded out the adult corp. When the issue came up about Coed activties and Venturing I went to the Guide to Safe Scouting, saw the above and we moved on, I never looked in the Venturing Leader Manual which talks about the necessity of having both male and female adult leaders but does not mention BSA registration. I tend to go with the Guide to Safe Scouting but am open

Way back as a youth I wanted to be a Roman Catholic Priest, from about First Grade to just before Senior year in High School. When people asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, I always said a Priest. After I completed the Eighth grade, I went to St Charles Borromeo Seminary in Lockport, Il which was then the Seminary for the Diocese of Joliet and completed three years there. I entered in 1967. The more veteran Cathoics out there remember the late 60's as the implementation of Pope John XXIII's Second Vatican Council. The mass was changed from Latin to the Vulgate (language of the people) so Mass in France would be in French, In Italy, Italian and in the US, English. They also turned the altar around so the priest was facing the people and communion was changed from placing the host on the recipients tongue to having an option of placing it in the hand. I was shocked and horrified. The reasons I had for being a priest were being whittled away. I realized that if the basis for my vocation could be changed, then the base was not that strong. For many are called but few are chosen. If the uniform changes, if the red top socks go away, does that change the BSA mission? Listen to B-P in this speech: http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/speeches.html the fifth one down, "Another Message to Scouts" listen to what B-P says about the uniform and badges, that they are just swank, and a scout may be proud, but is not swanky. ( I love the English's English, don't you?) He goes on to say that its not even about becomming a soldier or a sailor, but to be a good citizen. When you look at the BSA aims, to develop Citizenship, Charactor and Personal Fitness, what other organization can compete with that legacy? Sometimes adults get us all down. Thats why they came up with the saying 'Its tough to soar with Eagles when you work with Turkeys'. But you will find a group of people who you mesh well with, it's all in the looking and I hope they are scouters.

How is that different than what the Troop affords the scout?

I had never heard of Mic o Say until it was mentioned in the Forum. I am not sure I understand the place of an Honor Camper program either the OA or MOS. I know what I have been told by the OA people here, but what they say and how they behave does not mesh very well. What is the purpose of having MOS or the OA? What role does it play in scouting? You may or may not have to excuse that I don't see a reason for either is a well run troop program. If the reason for these programs is to make up for a poor troop program, then I think taking scouts away fronm their unit is a poor fix. Then again I may not understand the whole purpose. I know about cheerfull service, but rarely do I see it displayed, rather I see elitist attitudes by those who are not close to elite anything. Then again, its my opinion, I may be wrong

this is the Ranger First Aid Core Requirement: Complete a standard first aid course or the American Red Cross Wilderness First Aid Basics or equivalent course. What have you done to meet this requirement? How much time and who offered it and how much did it cost?

Ladies and Gentleman, my first inclination is to delete GW's last comment but as we know censorship is a hated thing. How many tire of GW's cracks and would like him to stop and how many dont think its really all that a big deal?

GW, Bob White is passing on information he has for those who don't know it. I appreciate that he is willing to pass it on. Stop the cracks

Way too many variables possible. If you are a large troop (50 scouts) and you add 10%, thats 5 scouts. For a Troop of 10, it could add 2 scouts and thats 20%. If you are counting rank advancement, a younger troop of 30 could have 3 rank advancements per scout in a year. (first class first year) for a total of 90 ranks. Then, the next year if the trend were to continue, those same 30 scouts could only earn 2 ranks, as First Class to Star requires 4 months and Star to Life requires 6 months. The group that had 90 advancements now has 60, because of a downturn in program or because of the program? I think trops should compete, on scout skills

"Several of our scouts who witnessed the incident, didn't want to attend camp again." I often wonder how many scouts see our behavior here and don't want to do anything scouting related anymore as well...

Whether its Flip Flops or Comtemplative Changes, its part of the process. To win the Democratic Nomination one must run very hard to the left, and appease that portion of the party to win Primaries, the Republican candidate usually (!) has to run very strong to the right to win Republican Primaries. Then after the nomination has been secured, the candidates have to run back to the middle to get the centrist vote that actually elects the president. Remember Bill Clinton's promise to allow gays in the military, he becomes president and gives us "Don't Ask Don't Tell". The gays were horrified, but what were they going to do, vote for Bob Dole in the nest election? I think, although I am sure I will be told if wrong, no party has more that 33% registered voters. So, 33% are Democrats, Republicans and Independents. We know, theoretically, who the Democrats and Republicans will vote for, its the uncommitted 33% that determine the eventual victor. And that requires a lot of changing of attitudes on both candidates part.

I guess that is the key reason COs fade out, no one in the CO has a child in the program. And I have to ask, Why not? Why wouldnt the troop be doing the sort of things the youth of the church would want to do? When you come back from an outing on Sunday, is the parking full of church members? I dont understand how a church could not have scout age youth, is this the issue?

Hope and Change of course

Anarchist, you were very good to volunteer to drive him home, were you two alone? For a kid who was brazen enough to steal, break things, threaten suicide, if he had run into his mother's house claiming you tried to molest him, what would have happened? I know, it didn't and that was the farthest thing from your mind, the troop was happy to be rid of the pox upon it, but it could have been very interesting had the bundle of joy cried rape

Pictures just posted from Summer Camp http://www.troop362.com/pictures/?dir=.%2F2008_pictures%2F08070_summer_camp%2F Not sure why the link doesnt work, but copy and paste does(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)