OldGreyEagle

So all this is about whether or not following the rules of a childrens program is a moral imperative?

I dont get out much and wouldnt want to be accused of taking swings at anyone, but is the reason for the "Credit Crunch" due to George W Bush's policies? He did all this by himself? Well with help of is administration? It just seems to easy to lay off blame on the sitting president. One of these days Social Security will go belly up as well. When that happens, will the current president be accused of causing the issue when it was known as a problem for decades? I respect the opinions of the forum, I am trying to get a perspective

Lisabob, sorry if asking questions of people I respect is taking swings. I shall refrain

we racked up 700 billion in bad debt in 8 years?

Well Trev, since Beavah didnt answer me, I will comment to you. I understand about Laws that must be broken, Laws that need to be stood up to. But do these laws exist in a "Children's Program"? Beavah says that when I talk about changing the rules for Eagle, that I am using a straw man argument. I was using hyperbole to find out what type of Law is it that can be ignored? And how many times have we corrected each other when using terms like Law and legal, as in is it legal for a Wood Badge graduate to wear a patrol medallion. Of course its "legal" in the state you reside, it is just against the uniform guidelines of the BSA. It does appear that what is being said is that some rules can be broken and others can't and inately you or someone else knows which are which. Well, I don't, someone explain it to me

I freely admit I don't understand the argument, I am giving what I understand of it. So, are you saying that there are some rules that can be broken and others that can't? That does seem to be the gist, but I am willing to learn if I am wrong.

Thank you Calico, lets seem Biden's plagerism was false and now so is Obama's house dealing. What do people do who dont have Scouter.Com as a resource?

Gee, as a Roman Catholic, a much insulted sect I might add, I never saw Martin Luther as that much of a hero actually. I never saw breaking rules as being as gallant as is being depicted. Again I will ask as it just gets a short shrift answer when I have asked it before. So, if the CO thinks 21 merit badges is too many, then its ok to make Eagle at 18 merit badges with the Troop faking the blue cards? Is the Committee Chair who over sees this on the same level as Martin Luther? Is the Scoutmaster who allows this on the same level as Rosa Parks? I dont see how following rules is such a burden and the glory associated with rule breaking. yes, it happens as the examples illustrate, but is a "childrens program" worthy of such elevation? Why is not Jim Stark or Johnny Strabler offered as role models for todays youth? If people want to do what they want with the Boy Scout program, thats up to them, but to wrap their behavior in with the likes of the names that have been bandied about is beyond me

OK, so now Rythos, I can claim to be an injured party because you made fun of my Catholic views. Wait a minute, perhaps I should just let it roll off my back and not get bent out of shape whenever something offends or at least bothers me, actually that would be the better approach Anyway, my understanding is McCain's Father-in-Law gave McCains wife the houses and no, The senator didnt keep track of them, I guess that is his flaw. So, speaking about housing. Didnt Senator Obama buy a house adjacent to a vacant lot that Tony Rezko bought on the same day? While Mr Rezko paid full asking price, Mr Obama received a 15% discount on this house? If I am wrong, please explain it to me. I grew up in Chicago where the local politicians motto is "Ubi est mea" and nothing happens by chance(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

Alas, caught by Competing BSA resources, who knew they would conflict?

Just a thought, being "rude" is a matter of prespective. I remember a few times as a youth adult leaders would say. "I am going to talk to you like a Dutch Uncle" and then be very rude. I remember my father saying about his friends, well you know, Gus is a plain spoken man, he calls a spade a spade when actually Gus would call a spade a @!!**@ shovel, but I digress. Just because someone is rude does not negate their thoughts, ideas, or contributions.

I took this off slide 45 of Venturing Leader Specific Training Rev 2 "A Venturer is a young man or women who has completed the eight grade and is at least 14 years of age but not yet 21. He or she pays an annual registration fee, subscribes to the Venturing Oath and Code, attends regular meetings, and is a registered member of a chartered Venturing crew" So, a Venturer is a youth until 21, just like the OA, they are youth until 21. Why was there such a rule? Because they don't understand and thats all I can say about it

Perhaps our new friend jei4822 should research the memebrship numbers of Girls Scouts and let us know about the trend there, where relion and sexual preference are not an issue. It would seem to be a good control group. The BSA is a private organization as has been stated, when its membership wants to change, it will. Augusta National is males only and continues to be males only, they are private as well. I admire the BSA for the ability to stand up for what it beleives. I do think it will change if only because the BSA like all institutions change over time and reflect the values of its members. When? I have no idea

Did I say I was inexperienced? I like staying on terra firma, and the more firma the terra the better

Biden's 8 years is almost over?

Didnt realize they could be so expensive, nor would I borrow one if I didnt think I could replace it if things went bad, I guess it depends on who we are

I pity the fool who crosses Mr T,,,

So a Scoutmaster who says that in his troop the BSA uniform consists of the uniform top and jeans, then he is in league with Moses, Elijah and the prophets, da Maccabees, Jesus and the 12, da early Christian martyrs, St. Francis and probably most of da saints in the Christian tradition, the nobles who ambushed King John and made him sign the Magna Carta, Martin Luther, George Washington and the American founding fathers, Harriet Tubman and the members of da Underground Railroad, Schindler, and Gandhi, and Martin Luther King. Even Thomas More, who I'm told is da patron saint of lawyers? Who knew?

I see what Beavah is saying about his textbook example. The issue as I see it, is because there may be many different way to use the textbook and other teaching methods, just having a 4.0 GPA will not get you in most Post Secondary Educational Institutions, they also require either ACT's or SAT's, why? because an A is not an A is not an A. Medical School graduates face the same issue, just because you have a MD degree doesnt mean much, you have to pass the licensure test, same with Accountants. A CPA is valued because the public has an expectation of what a CPA can do. Now, I thought the reason why Eagle was highly regarded because the public has an expectation of what that means. If we have "too much" and thats open to discussion, interpretation of the rules, then the Eagle is not a National Honor, its something that some work hard at and others not so much. Like Degrees they start to need context. I graduated from Harvard Law School is better than Bob's Law School and Motorcycle Shop. Not that there is anythng wrong with motorcycles. if we want Eagles to be regarded as they have nationwide, dont the standards have to stay the same?

being an inexperienced canoeist, I would like to know how they damaged that expensive a canoe by swamping it. The canoes at camp are no where close to a thousand bucks and they are swamped constantly, its one of the requirements you know. I would like to know more to be sure I don't get close to doing what was done

It was awhile ago, I made a post in a nondescript thread, its nondescript because I can't remember it now, other wise I would post a link to it, that it seems that most scouters have parts of the program they feel are sacrosanct. Another popular poster at the time took issue with me at the term "sacrosanct" and said nothing was sacred about the program in his eyes. Later a topic came up that the poster disagreed with and said anyone who held the opposite opinion as he should not be a scouter. When I pointed this out to him, he said he indeed did hold some things sacrosanct, he just didnt realize it at the time. So, what rules and guidelines are up for interpretation? The hiking merit badge says you must take 5 hikes of 10 miles and one hike of 20, so, if you round up, could a scout do a couple hikes of 7 miles and count them? I mean they are close, and the 20 miler, well he actually did 15 miles, but again its close. No? Nobody gonna buy that one? (I hope) So, you need 21 merit badges for Eagle, and since Council checks them against the advancement records, the scout needs to have 21 merit badges on file. So, if the Troop sends in a few advancement reports that include merit badges that the scout didnt earn, who is to know? Besides the scout and troop that is, is that wrong? After all, he is a good kid At what point with bending rules do you reach the point where you say, no, thats too important, I wont bend that one? Once you get in the habit of twisting, tweaking, massaging and otherwise cheating, where does a person stop? Now, to be clear, having a youth sitting on a Board of Review is not equal to forging merit badges or fudging hike distances. But just what is the essence of the Boy Scout program that cannot be compromised, perhaps that would be a great discussion.

I am sure the many scouts who read this forum know that Oscar De La Hoya was a Gold Medal Boxing Champion at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics while Oscar De La Renta is responsible for the recently "retired" uniform

I found this http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/9910/a-ksmp.html OK, its a little dated, but it does make the case you must give something of value and you can't do raffles. I was reviewing the thread and saw Infoscouters post on the first page about the Cub Scout pack link that I thought was the definitive answer, and wondered, just what is the argument about? A scout unit can't ask for a donation, what is the issue here, I am not catching it.(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

Now Jim Fowler from Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom seemed to always be wearing something with epaulets on it. You remember Jim don't you? I can still hear Marlin Perkin's narration now, "I watch from the safety of the blind while Jim wrestles the 20 foot Anaconda in the slippery mud of the Amazon" and then later in the show ol' Marlin would say "Just as that Anaconda had Jim in its loops, Mutual of Omaha will keep you close though its Insurance program" or something like that. Loved Jim

If the scout has not shown up for 2 years, how did he meet the requirements for Eagle?