83Eagle

I conceded to the fact that the GSUSA and BSA are different animals. However, girl scouts do not eat their own. You don't have to read too far into these forums, or spend too much time among scouters, to see the disdain by some for the cub scout program. Well respected posters here have wished to bid the program, quote unquote, "good riddance." In this thread wing nut bemoans that with a Lion program there would be "no one moving up to the troop." Ok, fine, let's use the oft-cited-in-these-forums example of baseball then, rather than GSUSA. T-ball starts in preschool here and schools field about a dozen teams. As the years go by, more and more kids drop as they refine their interests and abilities. By the time we get to high school, we have one team. Talk about attrition! Where are the calls to do away with T-ball? If our Pack is not doing well recruiting, I look in a mirror and work harder. In contrast many troops I have dealt with do little direct recruiting at all and simply wait for their "feeder packs" to cross boys over...then complain when the numbers aren't there. If your troop is not being as successful as you would like in it's recruiting, try harder, and quit blaming the cub scouts. The intranicene squabbles help no one.

Duplicate post(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

We had great success with minute to win it games and would do it again. Sock wars was a huge hit and would do it again. We dressed the leaders as turkeys for thanksgiving...that was a riot...I'd probably wait a few years to redo that. Camping expo with different stations for different activities...setting up tents, making s'mores, knots, etc., that worked well. The three derbies. Hmmm...come to think of it maybe it's not so hard after all. I would say by about the third year of the rain gutter regatta they've had enough though.

I've learned here that you can't win against the scouters who don't like cub scouts, period. Either they argue cub scouts put on lame arts and crafts programs that bore boys to tears so everyone drops by the time they reach the age for boy scouts, or they claim that molycoddled boys can't hack it as true scouts and quit when they find out boy scouts is not Webelos III, or they complain packs put on programs that are too active and leave the boys nothing to look forward to in boy scouts so they drop when they get there out of boredom. So if cub scouts in general is a bad idea, it doesn't surprise me that the idea to add another year would be met with disapproval. With that said, I really don't know if Lion is a good idea or not...it's already hard to design pack activities that are suitable for Tigers yet interest Webelos. What I do know is that girl scouts do not blame low retention of older scouts on the activities of the younger program and, as far as I know, have no intention of dumping their kindergarten program. Just sayin'...

Table w/ a placard for "Den displays," comment during the Pack meeting to go check it out.

We traditionally have, it's up to the den assigned to bring them. But I'd like to kill the practice except for special occasions. Seems pointless for a 60 minute meeting that starts at 6:30.

I'm not suggesting anything, just observing. Lots and lots of interesting things to observe.

Girl scouts starts in K with Daisies. [insert obligatory retort about how GSUSA is not like BSA].

Well, it was a waste of time for us. Effectively went 0-for-7 on recruits versus attendees, with only a fraction attending what tend to have in fall. I won't do it again.

Hmmmm...our recently departed webelos leader may be a great choice....thanks for the idea!

I think your pack is also fortunate to have you to take on the permanent TDL-coach role. As CM I have time to build in one get started meeting, but not to coordinate meetings through February. I can't see anyone in our pack agreeing to take on that type of role, although admittedly I haven't asked.

ScoutNut, I'd like to hear more about how you make the transition from you as the permanent TDL to finding a DL. Do you assign meetings/activities at the first meeting? How do you keep the meetings led by adult partners + boys if you are the official-looking/uniformed person? Etc...

We did a spring recuiting where we invited the boys to make stomp rockets and they had a blast, so to speak. I did the pep talk and had everyone jazzed about summer activities, including a BBQ and bonfire program where they'd earn awards in addition to having fun; two different sporting events for local minor league teams where they'd get patches, a summer parade (with a patch), drive in movie (with a patch), and small community service project (with a patch). Got about 6 to show up despite heavy recruiting by the boys and a "bring a friend" night. One paid app who has since decided to wait until fall. Lesson learned, spring recruiting is a waste of time. Focus your summer events on your existing scouts and forget about recruiting till fall.

Yes, we had zero signups for Tigers in spring and that was the most surprising to me because I thought that boys just leaving kindergarten would be looking for stuff to do, particularly since they're not really in baseball yet. But I didn't realize that the PARENTS were the ones NOT looking for stuff to do. In contrast, a CM friend of mine has had great luck with spring recruiting, running a similar event. Go figure. So, out of a half dozen kids who came to our spring recruiting, most were for my son's den, and were invited by boys in the den. Got two signed apps. One with no payment, I'll catch you later (right!). The other we did get payment and add to the roster but after a few reminders about summer events coming up I got a message back that "we're going to wait until fall." Go figure. Big waste of time for Tigers. Stick with fall. The parents, who make the decisions, are back in the activities mindset then.

Spring recruiting has been a big bomb for us and I would not do it again, but to each their own. The reason it's hard to get a Tiger leader, beyond the usual volunteer reluctance, is that most people do know know what Scouting is about. So, you ask for a leader, and nobody has a clue. That is a valid point. So, we recruit new tigers but do not ask for a leader at that time. We hold our first Tiger meeting and I run the meeting with my son, displaying the parent-son partnership. I explain to parents that this is how the Tiger program works--parents and sons together. See how easy it is? Then we have a signup sheet. Each parent signs up for at least one slot to plan and do--activity or go-see-it. I also have a guidebook I made up that I give to the den as a resource to pass around. It has a bunch of games and activity suggestions. Somewhat like the meeting plans in the offical BSA material, but not as overwhelming and strucutred. Makes it look simpler and easier. Then after we get signups, I say that I need a TDL who is essentially a "parent coordinator." This is someone who will schedule meetings, report advancements to our advancement coordinators, and who I can talk to in order to be sure things are going ok. That person MAY evolve into the DL going forward, but not necessarily. As people see how the program runs, someone more suitable may come forward.

Sometimes the Den has to succeed despite the Pack program. Our Pack was an arts and crafts, low-buget program where pack meetings were BOOOOOORING. Our Den started as an outdoor program from day one, where our FIRST Tiger meeting was at a family event at a nature area where we went hiking and found snakes, pressed apple cider, and went on a wagon ride. We were the first Den to ever attend district summer camps. We held Den fundraisers to get us more funds. We bought red vests and had them loaded with patches by the end of our second year. (Looking back, now that I know a little better, we did a few things outside the G2SS...) Anyhoo, no surprise that our Den doubled in size after the first year and tripled after the second and is the largest in the Pack by far. I always believed in putting the outing in scouting. Boys and the outdoors go together like PB&J. Kids sit in class all day working on books and crafts, why come to a meeting to do some more? As far as I'm concerned you can toss the Tiger book out the window and just hold all your "meetings" outside. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea. Do YOU like to learn the food pyramid (again and again) and make macaroni art? No? Then why would your boys? That's my theory. As Webelos it's even better because now the boys can actually really DO stuff. Heck, with a pocket knife and a stack of carving wood they're busy for hours. Case in point, last campout we cut wood "cookies" to do branding. Well, the boys took the cookies, carved up some sticks, and attached the two in order to make an arsenal of Tommy guns. I'm sure that violated some scout rule too but I thought it was pretty dang creative...

A good Webelos program should look less like Cub Scouts and more like Boy Scouts. Put the boys in charge of the program decision making and have the adults there to help them figure out how to get stuff done that they do not know how to do. They do have to look at the book, assuming they are interested in getting Webelos and AOL, but they should look beyond the book. For instance, I started the Webelos year by asking who played baseball, who played basketball, who played soccer, karate, etc. Lots of hands went up. I then asked them how often they opened a book when they got together for these activities? No hands went up. So why do we have this book, I asked them. Well, there are some things we need to learn, but scouting is not school. We are not going to sit here week after week and do badge work. And having just seen a den of pencil-whipped Webelos supposedly blow through 16 pins in 8 months :roll eyes:, I can tell you how a program should not be run. With that as the backdrop, we brainstorm stuff that sounds interesting to them--hiking, camping, backpacking, snow tubing. We don't limit it, so things come up that we can't do--kayaking, mountain climbing--but that's ok, we are just discussing. Then we do look at the book and see how things might tie in. I have parents look at me skeptically when I talk about this. But I point out to them that if they go to any playground at any school during recess, they will see boys getting together and deciding how to get stuff done. The playground monitors do not hand them a manual and say "I know you'd rather do kickball, but today we need to do chalk art instead." No--the boys agree on what they want to do, form teams, even make rules. They CAN do this stuff--with guidance, of course, to keep them within the program parameters. So in my opinion, a good Webelos program looks like a Boy Scout program, just with the leaders more engaged in the group rather than sitting on the side doing paperwork. (This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Dumb question but one I haven't found the answer to...what is "green bar" about? I suffered through a late 70s scouting program on my way to Eagle after which I promptly dropped out due to sheer boredom. Imagine my surprise to reenter the program as a leader later and find out scouting is supposed to be about getting outside.

Generally we cross all the first year webelos over........... So most of our first year Webelos get an AOL and a career arrow. The second year webelos program is just more of the same. I don't understand this. How can you give first year Web's the AOL. There's no way they can qualify.

What is the process--or is there a process--to modify Webelos (or other) CS achievement requirements for "special needs" that are not related to physical disabilility (autism, aspergers, ADD, etc.)

Ours shows up at the blue and gold and is AWOL the rest of the year. Ok, I know you were looking for a helpful answer. ScoutNut has a food answer. But mine is unfortunately true.

Scouter, because the TDL is not expected to stay with tigers for years on end, although some do. Our pack runs a year round program, but tigers start with fall recruiting. Scouts cross over in May to the next rank. Therefore it is only possible for a tiger leader in our pack to serve 9 months AS a TDL. To say that no tiger leader in our pack who meets the other requirements for the award is ineligible because it is impossible makes no sense and in my opinion is not the intent of the requirement.

Unless the TDL quit being a DL in May, I don't see the issue. Just wait until september to submit the paperwork.

Whatever your pack defines as a program year. IMO since tigers are wolves once school is out in our program a tiger leader sticking with the den can only serve 9 months, but that is a full year just like 9 months is a full school year.

I call shenanigans! Show me the rule!