83Eagle

I was asking our district trainer a question about WLOT as it relates to Webelos Den camping, and he gave me this little tidbit in an email, which relates to this topic... "...you had said that Dens couldnt go camping, and according to the Guide to Safe Scouting you are correct. But you can do family camping, where the parents (or parent) accompany the cub scout for overnight camping. This is recommended to be done at the pack level, but could also be done for a specific den. The parents are responsible for their child." Well, this came as a complete shock to me because as we all know, "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America." But the clarifcation provided by our district is that there's Den camping (where you might not have every boy's parent there, just that every boy is "assigned to" a specific adult), and there's Den family camping (where every boy has a parent). The former is OK only for Webelos; the latter is ok for other den levels. So under this interpretation it appears the OP's scenario is within the rules.

Got it!

Of course it has to be a whole day-hike, like 6:00 am - 6:00 pm Is there somewhere that I can point to where this is specified? That is, day hike is like day camp, not just a "hike during the day."

The CC is a 30(?)-year veteran of the program and asking the CO to appoint someone else is not likely to be met with a favorable outcome...but that's another topic. So for sake of argument we can assume that my choices are to work within the confines of this reality or to move to another Pack, which I do not want to do for many reasons--the most important of which is that this is my son's pack, and it is comprised of my son's friends, and he loves it. We do a lot of good, fun stuff, even compared to other Packs in the area and compared to examples I have read about here. I believe that's why our Wolf and Bear dens are both now double the size they were as Tiger dens. But I believe we can do more in our program. More outings, more activities. Because when I ask my Scouts "Why did you join Cub Scouts," they talk about fun stuff. I want the boys to have the opportunity do more of that fun stuff and achieve the goals of scouting along the way. But to get more stuff done, I know I need to involve more people because there are limits to what one person can take on. We have 40 scouts and 6 leaders, which means there's more than 70 untapped adult resources out there...more if we can get grandparents, uncles, aunts, siblings, etc. involved. I mean, why not? My question then--back to the original question--is how do I do this? What's worked for you? I don't give a darn about who's the COR or CC or IH or chief cook and bottle washer or whatever. There's far too much focus in these forums on the "adult" part of Scouting--who is supposed to do what, who's got what title, all the inside baseball. I just want people who are capable, competent, and committed to what they say they will do. Then we will be all right! So my question is simple: What are ways that YOU have done this that have worked? So what I'm hearing is-- 1. Task-specific requests: Take a parent survey. Build a skills database. When a need comes up, ID the likely candidate, query the DL or someone who knows said candidate to confirm, then ask him/her directly. 2. Long-term requests, like new committee members or leaders. This one's going to be tougher and will take more time to "get to know" people. Maybe we'll have luck with a broadcast message--who knows, couldn't hurt. Also query the people who do come to future leader/parent meetings, if any. 3. Event volunteers. Go back to the database (step one) for any specific skills or gear related to said event. Ask the DLs. Perhaps make it clear on event signup that said event will not happen without sufficient volunteer involvement.

The COR and CC were invited but don't want to be involved. The treasurer was invited but chose to resign instead and we're in the process of replacing her. So our first-ever leader meeting was just me and the DLs. The next meetings will be opened to parents as well so that will give me an idea of who is willing to step up. Beyond that I do plan on working with the DLs as I indicated in my post, although the TD has not had any meetings. We're addressing one problem at a time and fixing the airplane while it's in flight.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

>>The BSA method of looking for the best person for the job, and then asking them - personally, face-to-face, and making sure they know that they will have any help from the other Pack leaders... This has worked well for me at the Den level but I'm trying to find a way to apply it to the Pack level, hence the question. In other words (and the backdrop is, I'm a 2-year DL but recent CM), I got to know the adults in my 8-scout Den over two years and got a good sense of who could do what. Not so much with the 30+ other families in the Pack. How to identify the best person when I don't know who has what skills? This is in part what I'm asking. So the surveys that are mentioned and that have been brought up in training...one idea. Asking other DLs perhaps, though we have two new DLs this year. Maybe, let me pose a few scenarios to everyone and let's see what ideas there are: 1. Task-specific volunteer requests--building something, leading a skill session. Things that are going to be a one-time need. That seems to be the easiest; identifying who has experience in ABC. This looks like a good spot to use a survey. 2. Longer-term requests. For instance, we needed a new treasurer when our old one bailed. Since our COR and CC are hands-off, I asked someone from my old den who I knew was responsible and the CC and COR just signed off on the change. Well, what about other roles? You might have noticed from other threads that our pack has no advancement coordinator and this postion was highly recommended. So let's use that as a specific example. Do I go to the next Pack meeting and announce, "Who wants to be our advancement coordinator?" (Quite possibily followed by the sound of crickets...) Ask the leaders? This is something I really have no clue how to approach successfully. 3. Event volunteer requests. This is going to be a big one because our Pack needs to do more stuff. We had a very limited agenda in the past because our CM did everything himself. So, let's take another specific example: We're doing a pack overnighter in a few months. Now, my helpful BALOO book has this nice checklist and I'm up to step 4: "Event and Program Assistants Recruited." Well, our Pack leadership consists of me, a WDL2 who I am uncomfortable assigning responsibility to; a WDL1 leader who is brand new and trying to figure out the program; a newly-recruited Bear leader to take over the den from me; a good second-year Wolf leader; and a brand new Tiger leader who stepped in after the first two quit. Again, we have a pack committee in name only. So, how would you recruit the needed help to make this event a success?

Greetings-- I don't have any advice to add beyond that given above but I wanted to offer a word of encouragement from someone in a similar situation. While our former CM has continued to offer support and assistance we do have an inactive "board of directors" and CO so it can get a little overwhelming and frustrating when learning about the position and talking to other CMs and seeing the vast differences between Packs. But my experience all along, from DL to now CM, is that enthusiasm and optimism are contagious, and people will live up (or down) to your expecations. Plan for the program to be great and it will be.

Just wondering what type of methods have worked successfully for others who have had success with getting volunteers from among the Pack families. This is a point that's covered in the leader training but beyond those generalities I'm looking for specific methods/devices/etc that have gotten results.

I looked at Scountlander and it looks perfect for what I have in mind. Easy to set up and all the DLs can administer Den stuff on there, plus it has the blast email function. Thanks for the tip.

Well, on one hand it still doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me and I also think I could spend as much time "organizing the organizer" as I do just sorting out badges each month. But on the other hand there's no downside to more parental involvement and maybe they could add some creative ideas. I'm curious about what other Packs do for badge presentation other than "hand the kid an envelope." (new topic thread #1: "What are your creative badge presentation ideas?"). I'm also curious as to how you effectively solicit volunteers. I've had good luck at the Den level but the strategies there don't necessarily translate into the Pack. Talent surveys? I know that the more specific the request, the more likely you are to get a reply...don't ask for an "advancement coordinator," ask for someone to handle a, b, and c. (new topic thread #2: "How do you get parents to volunteer for Pack roles?"). Y'all have to understand some background on our Pack as well. It was truly a one-man show for many, many years, with an in-name-only committee the composition of which I didn't even know until I was handed the complete pack roster when I took over the role. Democratizing the Pack has been a major priority but it takes time. Even identifying what duties to peel off takes time. And in the meantime, said duties need to get done to keep the pack functioning. So while having "someone else" handle advancement is now on my radar, it's probably not a high priority. My top priority is to the boys.

I'd like to hear the advantages of having a Pack Advancement person. The only one I can think of is the obvious of having someone to run to the scout shop so I don't have to, but this is not an onerous task and I'm usually in there several times a month anyway. I know, all the little things add up, but it just seems unnecesary to delegate this despite the fact that it is a "called for" position.

Unfortunately RecordTrax only has room for 15 scouts. Though I suppose I could save a different sheet for each Den.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

As you might know from other posts, I've recently become the CM of our Pack. Our outgoing CM didn't give me any records of what various scouts have earned so I don't really know who has what short of asking the scouts or DLs (some of whom are also new) or talking to the council or something...haven't figured that part out yet. To preempt anyone who advises me to "ask your advancement chair," we don't have one on our in-name-only commitee. Anyhoo, I'd like to organize this from the ground-up somehow, so that at least when I pass things over to my replacement in a few years we'll have a good database. I've been using the "Trax" spreadsheets at the Den level for several years and I like them a lot, but there is no "PackTrax" sheet. I'm aware of the Troopmaster software but I'm not sure we need that, let alone can justify spending our meager Pack budget on it. For those who use some sort of computerized system, what do you use and what are the benefits?

Yet another post from the new CM in the room. Looking for a way to get a Pack website out there for a few express purposes--online calendar; online document storage/distribution; perhaps even an email list service. First two are most important. I had used myscoutlink.com at the Den level for a bit and it was great, but they changed to a fee structure and we have a budget of $0 so I had to drop it. I've looked at PBWorks, which is free, but I'm not sure if that really fits what I am looking for. The other site hosting options I have found are all fee-based. I'm looking for two bits of advice: 1. What are the concerns/considerations/BSA requirements for Pack websites regarding privacy, YP, etc.? I recall reading this..."somewhere"...but I can't find it here or at scouting.org. Maybe I'm just missing it. 2. Any recommendations for low- or no-cost website options that will fit the bill?

Well, that's funny regarding the trained strip color because I just attended a training session where they handed out the green/tan ones. The trainer had a pack of each and I think he handed out the green/tan because there were enough to cover the group of attendees. And they sit in the same bin at the Scout Shop. I'm keeping my green/tan on my CS leader uniform!

>>A scout who is that active, tends to earn his rank a little bit faster than others. Yeah, we do run into that too. I use the advancement poster at meetings and my son's "thermometer" on the badge progress and arrow points tends to be higher than others, but I haven't had any issues. Instead, the boys are motivated by it. Lemme switch gears for a minute. I led the Tiger Den meeting tonight (long story...leader who volunteered backed out at the last minute). Kids had a blast and then I re-explained the "parent led" nature of the Tiger den to the parents...could've hear a pin drop. Fortunately the kids had such great fun that they kept asking "When's the next meeting!!!!" and I said, "It's up to your parents!" Heh heh heh... Anyhoo, made me realize just what a blessing having a group of active parents (and a good ADL who is transitioning to DL) is in my Den, so I'm done worrying!!!!!!!!

The boys like it and ask for it. My son loves it and has been using a GPS since he was 7. If you ask me a GPSr is a natural stepping stone to a compass, not the other way around, because a compass is harder to use...it's not as visual as a GPSr and there's no compass to point the way. We also frequently use the compass (and trail maps) in combination with at GPSr. It all comes together. This is a generation that has been using computers and playing video games from about the moment they could grasp a controller. I believe in taking advantage of technology if it interests the boys, which this does. IMO if the camp programs don't interest the boys because the boys are more advanced, the camp programs have to advance. Anyhoo, back to OT, geocaching has been a huge success and a repeat activity for our Den, so take that for whatever it's worth.

Scoutfish-- Yeah it makes sense. We do have an ADL (who may be technically the DL since I am the new CM), in case I didn't mention it. What you outline pretty much describes our meeting last night. We were doing the tool box building activity and I have a carptenter in the den who I put in charge of the project. My ADL (his first meeting) was great in stepping up and doing just what needed to be done and when (which is why I picked him). We also have a designated parent to be in charge of recording advancements, and one to be in charge of taking pictures for the Den scrapbook. After announcements I simply turned the meeting over to the carpenter-dad and let him run with it. He gave the general plan and turned the boys over with a bunch of lumber and tools and the parents (who were all there again) helped as needed. There's a wide range of physical skill differences at that age so some needed more help with the mechancial aspects. (The best part about having 12 parents there was that cleanup was super fast--and it was a lot of sawdust!) My son? Well, I asked if he needed help and he said "nah, I got it," so disappeared to take care of Important Leader Stuff. When he got stuck he flagged down...NOT me but the older son of our carpenter-dad. :-) (Who is not a Scout...but I REALLY see the benefit of Den Chiefs based on that episode.) In the end, my son's tool box ended up a little lumpy and crooked but he thinks it's perfect and so do I. So to answer the original question myself--take my son at his word, step back and let others take charge, and people will rise to your expectations of them. Oh yeah, and get a Den Chief!

It can be boring if kids are just following the navigator with no idea of where they are going. On the other hand, just having the GPSr doesn't guarantee you are going to find the cache (or even get where you're going). The fun happens when they get to "ground zero" and everyone starts looking. Some fun tips that have worked for us: -Create printouts of what the GPSr screens look like for the instructional part of how to use the equipment because it is hard for everyone to cluster around a little screen. -Set up a number of "temporary" caches within a short distance of each other so everyone gets a quick turn at the GPSr. Have the group strategize about the sequence and reevaluate. -Switch off kids using the GPSr after every find. -Ideally have multiple GPSrs. Many places will rent them. Ask if anyone else has a GPSr to bring. I found that I had several parents w/units in our Den who used them for hunting, etc., but not geocaching. They really appreciated the chance to learn how to use their GPSr for geocaching. -Actively engage the participants who aren't currently holding a GPSr. Have them follow a trail map and compare it to the directions given by the person with the GPSr. Does the navigator want you to bushwhack through 300' of swamp just because the arrow points that way? Or is there a better way around. -Have kids work on Leave No Trace while they are not holding the GPSr. We've gone out twice with the same group in the past few months, and the second time was to "regular" caches (rather than temporary ones that I set up just for them). Not only do they want to go again, but two of the families signed up for their own geocaching account.

>>In our Pack, parental involvement is required. we are a "no drop off" pack and go as far as have all parents fill out an adult application "for adult helper" Kudos to you. I always liked the saying that BSA does not stand for Baby Sitters of America. The idea to have parents "man a station" is great and I can't believe I didn't think of it, particularly since we have acutally done that on past activities. Sometimes one can't see the forest for the trees!

I wasn't being defensive. If you read the exchange you'll see that I was simply responding to "First, I'm going to challenge you: Why 1/1 at every unit meeting?" I'm just explaining the evolution of our particular Den. The parents know that their presence is not required because I tell them it isn't, but if they want to come to meetings, they are more than welcome. They are an asset to our program. I do know the 10 purposes of Cub Scouting but I also know that "Family Involvement" runs throughout the methods for achieving them. I'm also reminded of that "adding machine tape" demonstration that I've seen and has been referenced here, about the short window left in which parents have to influence their sons. So rather than fret too much right now about the independence part with our group of 8-year olds, I instead feel our Den is blessed to have parents who want to be part of things--and I'm not talking about helicopter parents who are just there to micromanage what their kids do, but parents who enjoy spending time with their sons. What an awesome (in the literal sense of the word) situation, compared to the "absentee parent" complaints that exist in these threads. Anyhoo, back on the original topic. The simple answer seems to be if it ain't broke don't fix it; everyone's happy, son says he's happy, stay the course. I'm the type that tries to anticipate problems before they happen but perhaps I'm making a problem that doesn't and won't exist.

>>First, I'm going to challenge you: Why 1/1 at every unit meeting? This isn't Tiger Cubs ... the kids can and should (ages and stages) be weaning away a little bit from Mom/Dad. I dunno. I'd like to think it's because our den meetings are so fun that people like to stay. Maybe it's nothing more than that it doesn't pay for them to go home and come back after an hour. It's never been a requiement (past Tigers) but I let them know they're welcome to stay and they do, and I'm not going to change that because I think parental involvement is a good thing. All I know is that our Den has grown from 5 Tigers to 9 Wolf to 12 Bear and it's pretty darn unusual for older dens to pick up kids in our Pack, so we must be doing something right and I'm not going to discourage what's working. Also, having the parents there doesn't mean the parents are doing things for the kids. For instance, we did the cooking achievement in the Den, and the boys pretty much prepared dinner and cookies for the adults. Now that was cool. So I suppose you can now point out that if the kids are doing more why am I worried about the leader's kid being ignored? I'm painting with a broad brush here and every activity is different. As I mentioned above, we do have an ADL but, given my recent and unexpected need to take on CM, there is going to be a transition period.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

>>We ran this ruse for about six months with me acting as CC. We never really saw the old CC much. At recharter we changed the registrations officially and kept on chugging. This thought has crossed my mind...however, doesn't the on-record CC and the COR have to sign off on the adult leader paperwork?

We have an ADL but are not (yet) using Den Chiefs. (They've never been part of the pack/troop structure...one thing at a time...) I am also the CM. I think it's precisely because we have such strong parental involvement that this thought has crept into my head. Because if we do an individual craft-type activity--say, building tool boxes--it's not like it's just me and the ADL working with 12 boys. Instead we have 12 boys and 12 parents. However, that also means that each boy is working with a parent, except for me who tends to be flitting around the room to answer questions and whatnot. I'm guessing I'm creating a problem in my mind that doesn't exist and I should take my son at his word, and also be thankful for the high level of parental involvement. And maybe just sit down and let the boys figure stuff out.

It's not what you're thinking... I'm the Bear DL and we have very active parents, to the point where it's rare that a parent will not stay for the entire meeting. Which is a good thing. However, that means when I've introduced and explained an activity and am darting around the room to see if every parent/son combo has any problems, it means my son is the only one who doesn't have a parent sitting at the table with him! Now, I've talked to him about this and he has no complaints. Also he's usually worked through the activity with me anyway to give it a test before the meeting. But, I'm conscious of it and I don't know if he might not be telling me it bothers him because of pride, whatever. Any thoughts/ideas?