83Eagle

It's the textbook definition of a Ponzi scheme, but heaven help any politician with the honesty to say so. I've never counted on it in my retirement and, as that date gradually (!!) approaches, I just hope Uncle Sam doesn't raid the retirement vehicles I put in place to take care of myself. Unfortunately when SS gets in real trouble I fear that all bets are off.

Eagle92, In the spirit of the political season it appears I may have...exaggerated?...a bit. Checked the form and it's $235 for the black belt test. But still enough! Regarding the "need to compare" the two programs, there obviously is none, just like there is no need to comment about the lack of need to compare the two. It's just an interesting discussion so if you're not interested feel free not to read it.

I did not explicitly state that when the GS tent together it is only female campers in the tent. I assumed that would be understood. You are of course correct on the various training modules, which are needed and verified in order to obtain insurance certificates from the GS council before each camping trip. Regarding the rest, all I can say is that, in my experience, the girl scouts give the girls much more credit for capability and the leaders much more credit for common sense.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

Yes the higher the belt, the longer the test, the more it costs. Same here. They start at $30 for the first belt and go up to $300 for the black belt test. That's just the test, not the uniform. Once they have you hooked... Music lessons are $20/per plus the instrument $000s...sports are who-knows-how-much plus the cost of travel to tourneys...more fundraising... These are all reasons that I don't put much stock in complaints about "how much uniforms cost at the scout shop." Now obviously it is an economic issue for some families (which is why their kids aren't in other extracurriculars), but we have hardship assistance and a uniform exchange--something that neither sports nor martial arts has, at least in our area. Most other times that's not the real issue. Oh, and cigarettes are $50/carton.

Beavah-- ABSOLUTELY!!!!

I see responses that state or imply that pack camping is family camping with each boy accompanied by a parent on a 1:1 basis. However, nowhere is a ratio shown (that I have found anyway). It says only that "In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult." Therefore, each youth must be responsible to "a" specific adult, but that does not preclude Jimmy, Bobby, Hayden, and Joseph from each being assigned to the same specific adult. Now that might not be wise, but that's why you have BALOO training and camp committee meetings to sort those things out. Now, Tigers must be accompanied by their adult partners, and families may not share tents, so the practicality of arrangements that are not boy:parent in Pack camping may be difficult to accomplish.

If your son is in sports, he is expected to wear the proper uniform to the game or he won't play. That's the anaolgy I use. Class A's are worn to every Pack and Den meeting, and most often to outings as well. If finances are an issue, start a Cub Closet to donate/exchange uniforms.

qwazse - What can I say, the girls like to camp. So do the moms for that matter who have been known to come along when their girls could not due to scheduling conflicts. In fact, last year they did camp T-shirts with the motto, "Camp Like a Girl." Like everything else, it depends on who's in charge and what the kids/families push to do. However, I have been a bit surprised with the detail of the various CS rules--and the comments made in other threads here that essentially distill to "Cub Scouting is not Boy Scouting, there's no need to do a bunch of camping"--that really highlight the differences between the programs' structures, at least in my experience. In my view, Cub Scouting competes against all manner of interesting activities for boys' attention. Camping is what we have to offer that no other program has. And when I ask the boys "Why did you want to join Cub Scouts?," no one says "To go to meetings" or "To work on badges." Camping is always the first thing that comes up. So back to the OT, let boys fulfill their desire to pick up sticks and stones and be attracted to bugs and shiny objects, just draw the line at actions that would reasonably lead to injury. My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Well, since this thread has digressed to this point... Cub Scouting has been a huge adjustment for me, having a daugter that has been in the Girl Scouts since kindergarten. The missus just happens to be a GS troop leader too. Keeping in mind that Girl Scout troops are essentially like Dens, being organized by Grade: -My daughter has been camping with her troop since she was in first grade. CS: no den camping allowed 'till grade 4. -When my daughter went camping, they are required to have a 1:5 scout:adult ratio, that's it. No "adult partners." -When my daughter goes tent camping, everyone piles into tents based on space constraints only. All the better when they go winter camping. (Can you point out the two things not allowed in CS in that statement?) -My daughter has been cooking over the fire since who knows when. Cub Scouts: Outdoor cooking is not "age appropriate" for under Webelos (according to G2SS chart--of course, that's despite the fact that outdoor cooking is part of the Wolf and Bear badges). -My daughter has been using various power tools to do various service projects. Her council suggested that the girls use two-hand bow saws at a council camp event (grades K-6). And on and on. Oh, and the AOL can't hold a candle to the Girl Scout Bronze Award in terms of complexity and community service requirements. I know "boys will be boys" is not a good operating philosophy but we've gone to the other extreme. It makes it rather difficult for the missus...not to mention my son...to understand why the CS can't do something when I start citing (one of the many) rule books, when compared to the level of responsbility the girls are allowed to assume.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

Your experience is just more proof that people forget about the first word in Boy Scouts.

Our two WDLs are not the outdoorsy type so I've been trying to establish better communication between the dens and the feeder troop. That would be the ideal solution in this case. But, you can lead a horse to water...

I don't think it's unique to Woodbage, it can happen with any aspect of scouting where adults receive awards and patches for stuff they do in the program. There's a line between wearing your uniform with pride and trying to re-live your own glory days as a Cub Scout/Boy Scout. No different than you see on the sidelines of your average youth sporting event. I'm the type of person who will take every training that's offered if it's useful to me in the role I've agreed to take on--meaning that it will help me deliver a quality program for the boys. A year ago I didn't even know what Woodbage was; I just wondered what the plaid scarves and animal patrol patches were doing on adult uniforms. So I started to pay attention and heard the term "Woodbadge" and read a lot here. Unlike all the other training sessions that are front and center in scouting, Woodbadge seems to fly under the radar and it's hard to find out about what it is or when it is, despite the attiude exhibited by some Woodbadge completers. Therefore, even now I'm confused about what it is or whether I would benefit. Do I really need a two-week leadership course to help me become a better leader when we already have position training, outdoor training, Cub Scout college, roundtables, etc. etc. If so, then why isn't Woodbadge required, like position-specific training will be? If not, what is the purpose? To go "above and beyond" and "do your best." Ok, I can see that, to a point...but that gets me back to "isn't the program supposed to be about what the boys accomplish, not what I accomplish?" These are just random musings on the topic. I really don't have an answer.

The more I read the more confused I get. I need to give our WDLs some solid and correct advice on what training is required and what is recommended if they decide to have the Webelos dens camp as a den. 1. First, does IOLS also encompass the required/recommended Webelos training? That is, could a WDL who is hoping to stay with the Scouting program take IOLS in preparation for Boy Scouts and kill two birds with one stone? 2. Second, the G2SS says that a Webelos scout may participate in den camping when supervised by an adult. No traning requirements are specified there. In other documents, it appears to be recommended (should) rather than required ("must") that a Webelos den have a leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders on Webelos den camping events. Therefore, my interpretation is that, even though it's not preferred, a non-trained leader could take a Webelos Den camping. 3. BALOO training only comes into play for Pack overnighters (which involve the spectrum of Dens). It has nothing to do with Webelos Den camping. I'm not looking for a discussion of what is the best practice; I'm looking for the literal answer to the question based on the rules in order to answer questions that come up.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

I agree with the comments about the publicity and also think the one-day event, face-to-face has merit. Last year, our collection was 2/3 of what it had been in 2008. This year, it was less than 1/2. We did the drop bags one week, pick up the next routine.

I am a CM so I don't run into too many Woodbadge folks yet. However there are a few in the district at the cub level. Their attitude is 100% "look at me, I did Woodbadge!" I always thought Cub Scouting was supposed to be about the boys' progress, not yours. Maybe I don't fully understand the program but the attitude of what I've seen has turned me off to it.

But keep in mind, the kids are not playing with sticks INSTEAD of hiking, trails or being outdoors...they are getting the sticks WHEN they go hiking, on trails and outdoors. Absolutely agreed. Boys are attracted to sticks like flies to... And 100% of the time they become "swords," "guns," and other weapons. I couldn't care less about it unless they actually physically whack someone. There's enough sissification of boys in the Cub Scouts today as it is, and in society in general, to worry all too much about this!

We really don't do much with the stick thing other than stress that they're not allowed to whack people with them. Other than that you get into the "rinse, repeat" cycle mentioned above which just conveys to the boys that it's one of those rules that you can't practically reenforce for any period of time. It's not like taking a pocket knife away for a safety violation. (Hmmmm...maybe a "Stick chip" course that contains a stick safety pledge....nah.) Now regarding the fire, that's another issue. Our rule has been that boys are not allowed to put things in the fire without checking with the "fire marshall." It's a control issue particularly with a larger group. Maybe there's an official rule on that somewhere in which case I'm sure I will be corrected here firmly and in short order....

I have used interest surveys at the den level to determine what Scouts do and don't want to do when it comes to activities, but I'm not real fond of the report-card-type option. We all know the amount of work that goes into volunteering for any position and I don't think there's a way to do a judgment-type survey without it being a slap in the face. I just gotta ask, where are the parents in all this? If their son is bored they probably know it (maybe they're even at the Den meetings to see it), so what are they doing to help fix it? They need to step up and the ADL needs to be more assertive as well. Don't just say "We want to to X, Y, and Z" on a survey--offer to the DL to bring X, Y, Z activity to the Den meeting and handle all the details because they know how busy he is, so just let us know what meeting can we do that. If he says the den meetings are just too busy (to meet that December deadline, which I agree is a little crazy), then offer to organize specific outings to add variety to the program to balance the bookwork. I guess I just get tired of people complaining about the way things are run but who aren't willing to lead the charge themselves to make things better. It's everyone's job to "Help the Pack (er...Den) Go." Anyway, as as been pointed out here, since you're not the DL there's nothing you can do about another Den. Plus, my philosophy is to let those who stepped up to do things, do things their own way as long as they are within the guidelines--while of course bringing up news and opportunities that can benefit them. You can lead a horse to water... (This message has been edited by gotta run)

Thought about putting this in the camping thread but I'm really more concerned with the CS level of camp songs. I am looking for a good campfire music book that contains, at a minimum, guitar chords. I emphasize "music" because most of the books I've found are only lyric books. I'm not thrilled at all with the official CS campfire songbook.

Also I think the training records are so screwed up, council's do not know how to really verify that training has been completed, and thus approve those units that do turn in paperwork. This is essentially what I heard at a recent roundtable. "The council's records are a mess, so if they don't have record of the training that you have, tell us what you have." Uh...ok. The GS/CS comparision is a whole different topic...strengths and weaknesses to each of course. It's just in the back of my mind when I come across the issue of "Why can't I do this with our den/pack when my daughter's been doing it for years?"

-sigh- Makes me envy the Girl Scouts. My Girl Scout daughter has been going camping several times each year, going back as far as first grade if not even kindergarten if memory serves. (And as you probably know, troops are like single-grade Dens). Just plan the trip and get event insurance from the council, or something like that. Compared to them the Cub Scouts are scared of their own shadows. What do we say so often here? KISMIF? More like MICKTF (make it complicated, kill the fun). I understand the reasons for the rules but it doesn't help when they're not universally interpreted and applied, even by those who teach them! Then they're no longer rules, they're guidelines or suggestions.(This message has been edited by gotta run)

Eagle92, let me say that this news came as a surprise to me because for 2 years as DL I've focused on the "Dens cannot overnight camp" statement in big bold letters, as noted. And, I don't see any of our dens champing at the bit to go Den Camping anytime soon (including the Webelos, but that's another issue). Everybody's happy with Pack Overnighters and district camps. But what frustrates me is that you can tell me one thing. Then my district tells me another. Then I talk to two different Packs and see two different ways of doing things. So, I can take a strict interpretation as you suggest and tell any interested non-Webelos Den (as unlikely as that scenerio might be) that "no you cannot camp as a Den overnight, period, end of story." But what about when a Scout in this Den says, "Well, my friend in so-and-so troop who is a Wolf did?" (again, as unlikely as that might be). Or better yet, DL says "Well, I was at XYZ training session that you suggested I go to and they said something different than you told me?" This is maddening and is frankly a big time-waster as CM that I do not have to waste. Perhaps the practical answer is, "Well, file the tour permit and see what happens" but that is totally bass-ackwards.

The info is coming from the senior district exec. So, I'm gonna go with what I'm being told.

All I can tell you is that I was told by the higher-ups at the district level that "family camping" is allowed. So (at least for now), if a non-Webelos den in our pack ever did want to go family camping as a den, I would not feel like they were skirting the rules. And the scenario described by the OP would be allowable. The interpretation is that the "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved" is the camping that looks like overnight camping by packs. In other words, at a pack overnighter you might have every parent there, but it's not required and you only need to have each youth "responsibile to a specific adult." No one disagrees that this is not allowed at the Den level. They just say that family camping is a different animal in its own section, so if you want to camp other than as a Pack or at a council-organized event (i.e., as a Den), it has to be "family camping." To me it's also an interpretation that makes sense, because when you have an event where parents are there and responsible for children (and you have a BALOO person of course), you're providing even greater supervision than at a pack overnighter. Now I could certianly argue the other viewpoint just as well. In other words, in the "Cub Scout Overnight Opportunities" section, there are only two types of opportunities listed and neither one mentions "Den." The guidelines are far from clear on this issue as proven by the differing interpretations on the matter and a wide range of practices out there.

I had replied back that this interpretation surprised me, and got a follow up message... I have attached the Guide to Safe Scouting but again they contradict themselves on the same pages. The information for Camping is on Pg. 17. It will say that dens cannot overnight camp, but packs can, but when family camping all bets seem to be off (siblings can also attend if you desire). So, in our district at least, there would be no need to try to call this Bear camping event that generated the question a pseduo-Pack-overnighter. Just call it family camp. It is amazing how much variation there is between Packs, between responders on this forum, between districts. Clearly this is a point of differing interpretation. If they can't clean up the verbiage to eliminate that, perhaps they should list a number of different scenarios to describe how the rules would apply to each. All I will say that as a DL and now CM who is looking to have the Pack and Dens do as much as possible--and the boys WANT to camp--this has been a huge point of frustration for me. It really gets to the point where you end up doing what makes sense and what everyone agrees on and just hope that nothing goes wrong, which isn't the way it should be. I don't mind a loose interpretation of the rules if it benefits the boys, but I want to keep my butt out of hot water also. I keep thinking back to when I was recruited as a Tiger leader two years ago..."One hour a month!"