83Eagle

Of course, after I did that, I have several of our dads in my office last night screaming about the wheels and the rule about the wheels. Well, there are all kinds of problems about that, but that is another issue altogether! To the point at hand, the rule you specify is standard operating procedure. It's not specifically stated in the little sheet that comes in the box, but the sheet in the box implies to use the existing axle slots by giving redressing instructions. If the pack has allowed otherwise in the past, or not enforced this in the past, you're going to have to make a decision about whether to enforce it now. How long before the derby were the rules released? If you stick with the rules that were issued, you could always have a just for fun derby afterward, or a best of show judging.

Quick question--is COR a charged position on the roster? i.e., the IH is free, committee members are the usual $15. Not sure about the COR.

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. Basically someone people recognize as being associated with a long and successful program, and all the more reason to be especially diplomatic.

I'm guessing many of the boys would have as much fun at that activity as at a more formal race --- Tiger Cubs and Wolves especially. I'm going to bet that you will be surprised that kids will miss the competition. We switched our other two Derbies (space & raingutter) from "for fun" to competitive, and we doubled our participation and had much more excitement. Before it was "why bother?" Yes, I know why, but the bottom line is kids like to compete. And even if it's just "for fun," they're keeping score anyway, regarding who beats who. It's human nature.

Ok, so then written requirements aside, what makes this person a "fine COR." I'm really not being argumentative here, it's just that the consensus seems to be that while this person is not doing her role as CC, she is doing a good job as COR. So...why?

Why do you say that this person is a good COR? This is an honest question. I know what the role of the COR is on paper but I guess I really don't understand what the COR is supposed to do. Here's what I know about the role from the description, and who does what: Help select the right leadership for the unit. THE CM DOES THIS. Encourage unit leaders and committee members to take training. THE CM DOES THIS. Promote well-planned unit programs. THE CM DOES THIS. Serve as a liaison between the units and the organization. THE PACK HAS NO INTERACTION WITH THE CHARTERED ORG. Organize enough units. WE HAVE ONE UNIT. Promote the recruiting of new members. THE CM DOES THIS. See that boys transition from unit to unit. WE HAVE ONE UNIT. Help with the charter renewal. THE CM DOES THIS. Suggest Good Turns for the organization. THE CM DOES THIS. Encourage the unit committee to hold meetings. THE UNIT NEVER HAD COMMITTEE MEETINGS BEFORE BUT DOES NOW UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CM. Cultivate organization leaders. CM DOES THIS. Encourage outdoor program activities. DITTO Emphasize advancement and recognition. ADVANCEMENT COORDINATOR DOES THIS. Utilize district help and promote the use of district personnel and materials. NOT DONE. Use approved unit finance policies. HAS NO INVOLVEMENT IN THIS. Encourage recognition of leaders. DOES NOT DO THIS. Cultivate resources to support the organization. DOES NOT DO THIS. Represent the organization at the council level. IS NOT INVOLVED WITH COUNCIL EVENTS/ACTIVTIES/PERSONNEL/ETC. (This message has been edited by 83eagle)

BadenP, I really don't see how anyone could read any one of my posts and get that impression. If I wanted to keep all the power in the hands of the CM I wouldn't be looking to make any changes because that's exactly how it is now! I, as CM, took over a program where the CM handled 100% of the program planning--from the big decisions of what to do each year and at every single event and meeting, advancements, fundraising coordinator, rechartering, right down to making sure there were enough cups for juice at the pack meetings. When the CM needed a new DL or even new warm bodies for the in-name-only committee, he presented an application to the CC who simply rubber stamped it. Nobody on the committee, including the CC, did anything for the program nor were they expected to. This kind of control is "not a healthy situation." I've addressed a lot of it through involvement, collaboration, and delegation, but it is the situation--and only this specific situation--that the CC is inactive and the CM does most of the CC's job that I thought should be addressed. Hopefully that clears it up, because the previous structure was perfect for a little CM-potentate. *** Ok, to that end, what should I do, if anything? I fear that going to the COR/CC and saying, "Hey you hold these two roles, are you sure you want both?" could backfire badly. It might, it might not. I won't know unless I try. BUT is it worth the risk of backfiring? So maybe we just take ScoutNut's approach. Right now we still have just a 3-member committee. The other two are actively contributing...but I'm still in the "committee leadership" role. This works at least for now. We have good collaboration and agreement around decisions and there is no infighting or bad politics. We have a great group of people and certainly aren't dealing with some of the power struggles that I read about here. In fact, quite the opposite. So get more committee members etc on the roster, and don't worry about the "inactive" CC because the "overbearing" CC would be worse.

Is the battle really necessary to have all the paper work adjusted so as to embarrass some ancient Scouter who doesn't show up for meetings anymore? Definitely not. I'm thinking let sleeping dogs lie. Work around the structure but within the rules and put in place people to make my role managable, improve the program for the boys and increase the amount of stuff we can do, while encouraging a culture of involvement that will make things easier for my successor. That may be the best way to go. Just present the CC with a token of appreciation and sincere thanks at the Blue & Gold and don't expect to see her again until next year unless I need an adult app signed.

To distill a few points, it seems to me what I'm hearing is -Don't worry about the CC--just count your blessings that the CC is hands off rather than a micromanager. -Continue to recruit parents as either parent volunteers or official pack committee members and keep the CC involved in the selection process for bona fide committee members. -Demonstrate the need for additional committee members due to increased # of activities undertaken by the pack this year (which is certainly true), as well as perpetuation planning. Or something like that...

Still, I understand your frustration but this is the time to let other people in to help you not to try to manipulate them to do only what you want but what is best for the kids longterm. Wow, BadenP, why so accusatory? Unless I am reading this wrong. As I said all along, I am trying to 1) Make our program better, and 2) Make it easier for the next generation of CM to take over. Nothing to do with manipulating people into what I want to do. If that were my objective I would make no changes because the top-down structure I inherited would be perfect to achieve that objective. .

Our chartered org is hands off but regardless, as I said, I'm not looking to stage a coup by lodging a complaint about the CC, not to the CO and certainly not to the council. I also know it's a "careful what you wish for" scenario because having 100% de facto authority (even when I technically don't) makes some things easier. But it makes it that much harder to pass the reins to a new CM in a year or two because they look at the role and say "I could never do all that." Hence the need for a more active and empowered committee, which should really start with the CC. But, some of the other options presented might bear fruit. Another possibility is sitting down with the CC not to say "you should be doing this" but "do you want to do this?" Knowing that the answer will be "no," I can therefore find people to fill pieces of the CC role, while letting the CC think that the decision was hers.

Our pack had been a one-man show for many years, with enough warm bodies on the committee just to allow it to recharter. Eventually the CM burned himself out and asked me to take over this year. What we were able to do is replace two of the warm bodies on the committee with two capable people. The more difficult issue is the CC. Our CC is also our COR. This person has been in this role for many decades and is generally seen by the local community as being part of the pack identity. However, our CC is essentially a figurehead. The CC has never held a committee meeting or been part of the pack planning/leadership/administration for all the years Ive been in the Pack, or even before according to the previous CM. Again, the CM in this Pack simply ran the program and made all the decisions by himself (and never held leader meetings either). The CC would show up from time to time for special events but otherwise was never at pack meetings. When I took over as CM my first order of business was to delegate and collaborate. We immediately began holding leader meetings and I invited the whole committee and CC. The CC made a meeting or two but has since stopped coming. Likewise, I invited the CC to our pack meetings. The CC made the first meeting after my invite but that was it. Ive tried to get the CC to handle specific things that should fall under the committee responsibilities. For instance, the council is looking for a friends of scouting coordinator, which clearly falls under the pack committee. The CC told me I cant help you with that. So either I drum up a volunteer, do it myself, or go back to the council and say Brought it to our committee chair who doesnt want our Pack to do it. Not great options! Our CC is well respected in the community and has given a lot to Scouting over the years in different roles (including being a DL way back when), but either doesnt understand, doesnt know, or doesnt care about what the current role is supposed to be. The attitude seems to be, Ive been around a long time, I like wearing the uniform, signing off on applications and important papers that have a title for me, and coming to a few important things to show my face, but running the entire pack is your job. Just like it was for the CM before you. I really dont know what to do here. On one hand I am frustrated because Im not getting the support I should and am doing too many extra tasksworried Im going to burn out. On the other hand, the general membership and community do not see this problem. They only see that the CM has always done everything, so why dont I? I have already run into this in getting volunteers to fill roles the CM had always done but could or should be delegated. Fortunately I have had good luck explaining how this is our program and how to make it better, and using better direct recruiting efforts with parents, and we are having more luck getting parents to step up. But that doesnt solve our problem at the top. I feel like whatever we are doing is despite our top committee leadership and not because of it. Asking for help directly from the CC, is not working. Mentioning to the CC specific tasks that should be done by the CC or committee, is not working. The committee members we have are good, but they are new to the role and learning as they go, with me essentially acting as the de facto CC to them. Perhaps most important, this needs to be handled delicately. This is a one-Pack community with a strong reputation in the community. As far as the program itself goes, we do a lot of activities and have good member retention and high Boy Scout crossover, thanks to the CM working his fingers to the bone. So I am not looking to stage some sort of coup. My goal is to make sure that I and future CMs dont burn out like the guy before me, and to try to evolve to a better-structured organization that is easier to hand off to the next generation of leadership when I leave. It would be fantastic to find a role for the CC where the CC felt as important as now, but could be removed from the pack administration. But since the CC needs to be one of the ones signing off on any committee change Aaargh!

I think having every boy race against every other boy is ideal but impractical with larger dens. With a 9-boy den you're looking at 72 races. But you could do it for dens of 5. For larger dens both of the other methods seem to do about the same thing--mix up the cars in different lanes and assign points for win vs. loss. However there are problems that I see -The winning car might not have run against any of the next-highest placing cars. So it seems like there should be some sort of a run off before 1-3 places are determined. -In theory there may be a large # of cars with identical scores.

Here is the scenario for our pinewood derby. For the purposes of this question, assume that these parameters cannot be changed: -Two lane track -Win/loss electronic timer (no clock times) -Heats are run by den to determine 1-3 den winners -Den winners advance to a pack championship heat. 1. Goal: Increase the # of times cars can run. We have historically run a double-elimination race. This is easy to manage but it is disappointing for the boys when they run twice and are out. I would like to find a way to have the boys run a certain number of times--say, 5 races for each car--then find a way to shift the focus from "eliminated" to "won." In other words, "You'll all race 5 times, and the cars with the most wins will be the winners." If we have cars with the same # of wins we'd do some sort of runoff. But.....lots of problems I can see. Odd # of cars? And what if we have the same # of cars with win/loss records after the number of heats. Any ideas to accomplish my goal of increasing the # of times cars can run? 2. Goal #2. Find a way to make the results more transparent to the audience. Assume that we have no derby software or projection system. Trying to think of a big chart, or board, or...something. Any ideas?

Sorry Scoutfish, I'm gonna disagree with you. We just showed Down and Derby at a Pack movie night, Tigers thru Webelos, and everyone loved it.

We donate them to a community closet that is run by a nondenominational community church. It is a small community. Clothes are given to the needy with no questions from what they tell me. Their biggest needs are always socks and underwear but I didn't think Underwear Wars had the same appeal...

Oh yeah, and everybody tossed against the Cubmaster when he happened to wander into the center zone "accidentally"...

We did this in December and donated the socks to the local community closet. Collected 262 pairs with about 35 familes participating. The socks were rolled inside out and did not get dirty on the gym floor. We also rolled little slips of paper with the sizes inside the socks so that they could be easily sorted after unrolling. It was a huge hit and the kids can't wait to do it next year. I had like-ages tossing against each other, so that older and younger siblings went with the closest-aged den, and Tigers tossed against Wolves while the Bear dens tossed against the two Webelos dens.

Back to the original topic at hand... Running our space derby last night reminded me of some things. Teaching sportsmanship is good, and kids are ready to cheer. However, if it's an hour long or more derby, it's a long time to have your seat on the pine while you wait to run. Also, sometimes cheering leads to seats off the pine, seats clustered around the track, general milling about and a bit of chaos. Obviously some things can be improved in the scenario above...streamlining the derby, better control, and so on. But, back to the "activities when you're not running" topic, any other ideas? Next up is the pinewood, and I am thining of doing a photo-frame craft perhaps, taking pictures of all the boys and their cars. Or drivers' licenses, or something. But, something somewhat active, yet not overly distracting, would be great to add in. We run the derby in 1/2 of the gym, and the other half is open.

The flipside to that, Scoutfish, is that I think it's easier for parents to "blame" adults if something goes wrong. I saw this happen, not in a pinewood derby but in a GS powderpuff derby I helped run. Literally had someone shout from the bleachers that we weren't doing something right. In hindsight I should have told him to come down and help out himself, but you're just not prepared for that response sometimes. With the kids being more involved, it's not as "formal." If someone thinks a scout does something intentionally...I mean, this is the pinewood derby not the Super Bowl. Regarding walking on/over the track, we solve that problem with pennant ropes...basically "police tape" along the sides of the track, and looks festive too.

The neckers aren't expensive and make a nice "advancement" award at the end of the year. Just my 2cents. Although, the slides are easily lost. We keep meaning to do some kind of leather slide project. Edit: also, easy "sorting" of boys at events, etc. :-)(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

1) We don't want ever scout running to the finish line and bumping the track or dropping cars after they run into each other ( yes,it has happened) We were actually thinking of going the opposite direction with this. Typically we'd have an adult volunteer transport the cars from the finish, to the garage, to the start. I'd like to get the boys more involved rather than just watching. So they'd bring them to the starter, then claim them from the finish and take them back to the garage. The downside is they drop or damage their car (or someone else's), but it's a risk that seems outweighed by the reward of more involvement.

@Hawkrod: They have a ton of experience and knowledge but sharing it isn't always free, sometimes you have to pay the price to get an answer. I empathize with your position. I have commented on this elsewhere. Too often people make assumptions based on limited information presented in a post and rather than try to get a clear picture first, they go on a diatribe to tell you how much they know about something you didn't state or imply. I would say, don't let it get to you, but it's hard not to. As you've learned, don't ask a question here unless you are prepared to have people criticize you for needing an answer. Based on the number of PMs I've received from people that essentially all state, "That's why I don't post here often, but I don't want to agree with you publicly," you can also take comfort in the fact that you are not the only one who feels this way! As was mentioned in another thread, "This place isn't for wussies." Which, being a Scout forum, is disappointing.

I am looking for activity ideas for the boys to do during the derbies when their Den is not up to compete. There is space--we do these in a gym--but because it will probably be in the same room the activity should be reasonably controlled and not "free for all" loud: i.e., a game of tag would not be a great idea. I'm thinking theme-related and for all three derbies--space, pinewood, raingutter. Any ideas are appreciated.

Hey, I don't expect to be mollycoddled, and I certainly want to know when I am doing something wrong. I'm just saying that among the hobbyist type forums I belong to this one is, by far, the most brutal, and I'm not talking about just the issues and politics side. Maybe the next time before you (the generic "you," not anyone in particular) hit the "submit" button, you might want to do a quick read to see if your answers contain phrases like "REALLY???!!!" or "Well, you ARE aware that XYZ specifically prohibits ABC, aren't you," and other stuff that just isn't necessary to get the point across, and certainly doesn't fit with the whole "courteous and kind" thing. Oh, by the way, Beavah, I don't think my ideas are any special "pearls," nor do I think I'm any better than the members at large...I usually agree with, and always enjoy, your well-reasoned posts, so I'm going to assume that choice of phrase was not meant in condescention toward me. But this has really gotten OT, which is in part my fault for continuing down this path. My original point is that it's easy to fall into negativity about the Scouting program itself based on the complaints and problems that are aired here. So, as has been said, it's good to remember that "all scouting is local," and just "do your best."