83Eagle

The central nut of my post is that the attitude of "The Blue Loop Group doesn't belong in Scouting," seen in these forums and in the real world, gets very tiring for those of us who commit ourselves to the program and feel we're an equal part of it. kudu has posted about his difficulty or inability to recruit outgoing Webelos, versus non-scout 6th graders. But then he couples that with what a good idea it would be if Cub Scouting wouldn't exist or if boys "knew better than to join in the first place." Well, shazam! With that kind of positive attitude toward Cub Scouts, is it any wonder that trying to recruit those same scouts is not successful? My baseball analogy may be clunky, but I used it because it has been used here ad nauseum to support other arguments.

You could give them a career arrow blank with the idea that they would complete striping it next year.

I agree: Boys who drop out of Cub Scouts (or knew better than to join in the first place) make better Boy Scouts I am getting really tired of this disparaging attitude toward the CS program. Yeah I know, I can just click the "ignore" button... Sadly, this type of attitude is something I run into out in the non-virtual world as well, and Im going to take a leap of faith and guess that other members of the "Blue Loop Group" run into this as well--being looked down upon by other Scouters as not being a "real" part of the program. To borrow an analogy thats been tossed around here more than once, lets look at baseball. Now I dont hear a lot of high school coaches saying that if only kids knew better than to join the little league program, they'd have a much easier time of recruiting. Yet, boys often start playing T-Ball which is vastly different than regular baseball. Sure, the equipment is the same, but the rules are different. Kids dont pitch, they get to swing as often as they need to, teams bat through the roster without outs, everybody plays in the field at the same time even if you have 20 on the roster, runs arent scoredheck, youre lucky if you can get the kids to figure out what base to run to. Parents usually hover around the kids to tell them exactly where to go or what to do. Pack family camping, anyone? Then they move on to a game where parental involvement is still high but the skills are a bit more like real baseball. Parent-coaches still pitch (or use a machine) and there are extra parent-coaches in the outfield, behind the batter, and whatnot. Rules are designed to minimize blowouts and contain other features you wont find in real baseball. Finally, about grade 5, boys move on to player-pitched ball. Coaches are on the sideline. Eventually they may join tournament teams that take far-away (and expensive) trips to play. Now, as youth (and parents) move up in the program, they naturally assume that boys will have greater demands on their skills and take more responsibility. Parents don't complain in high school ball that they can't stand in the outfield with Johnny and tell him what to do. Yet, T-Ball does not teach youth or parenst that. It doesnt say, Well Johnny, this is just a development program, and eventually youre going to have more and more responsibility, with the goal being to cross over into the Pony League, then Little League, then even high school ball. And high school ball is where the fun really happens, so stick with the program!!! Im not also sure what the cross over rate is between programs but I do know that not every boy who picks up a glove at age 7 is going to be lettering in baseball in high school. And Im not sure how many boys who never picked up a glove before make the high school team, but Im going to guess its not a lot, and that most do have experience with a development program. Now, despite this, do high school baseball coaches stay connected with the little league program, or do they mock it and wish it would go away? Do they offer skills clinics for young little leaguers, or do they just wait for players to show up in the upper ranks and then complain that they know little about baseballcraft? Do they require high school players to work with little league teams, serve as umpires, etc., even though it increases the demands on those players (Den Chiefs, anyone???)? Maybe its time to quit assuming that boys who are Cub Scouts should just naturally want to become Boy Scouts, and that if they dont its somehow the fault of the Cub Scout program.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Route 66? Anyone in the Pack have the soundtrack to "Cars?" You could rip the interesting songs off that (leave out the short background music clips) and you'd have a good mix.

I'm with AlFansome. 1978 Ford Pinto, "copper" color (helped the rust blend in), wood grain shelf paper on the outside, plaid seats. It was a real babe magnet.

You will find that not all Packs interpret that the same way even though it is clear, and some will include any "unused" stuff toward elective points. I'm not saying that's right, but you will find it.

A cub master cannot also be committee chair and committee meetings should be called by the chair. The cub master is not supposed to have the type of power you describe exactly to avoid the type of problems you describe. However, not all packs are structured optimally. It sounds like he is acting as the de facto committee chair and the pack has been ok with that. So I have to ask, based on the facts you describe, where is your committee chair and chartered organization rep in this? As to your points about bullying, with the facts as described this should not be tolerated. Particularly if you have Facebook evidence it is something worth pursuing in my opinion, but how far that gets you depends again on the CC or COR. If you do feel you are being abused it could also be brought to a level outside the Pack although I'm not sure where i would start...at the Unit Commissioner perhaps. Someone else can weigh in on that issue.

I just ordered a bunch of 12 packs and a bunch of engines. Everything is about 60% off retail, including wadding and electronic launcher. Get 'em while the getting is good.

At Scoutstuff.org the Wizard is $19.88 for a pack of 12. With Ground shipping of $7.50, the cost for one kit is only about $2.28. I know it says "12 pack" on the site, but can that price possibly be right? It is a fraction of the cost availble elsewhere for a 12 pack.

How many rocket kits do you build? How long does the event take? I've done models with the kids at home but with launch and recovery time...a pack of 40 could take quite a while.

Why only 90 minutes for 40 cars? Because it's what the Pack wants to do. The preference is to keep the track up after the competitive derby for a "Run 4 Fun" event that we leave up as long as parents are there to monitor it. Regardless it's what the masses like so those are our parameters. I am just trying to figure out how long a certain # of heats will take.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

Aaaaaaannnnd....then there are leader issues. Just got an email from our 4th grade Webelos DL. Well, more specifically our advancement chair got one that she forwarded to me. She won't be at our Blue & Gold tonight because something more important came up. Of course the signs were there when she gave me no input into the Webelos badge presentation, and when she did email me late last week to say that her den will not participate in the scout skits at the B&G (making them the only den not to do so) because there was "no interest." So it's not just the "regular" parents with priority issues...

What is a UC supposed to do, exactly, and should I care as CM that we never see him?

I can comment more on the Pack level, not the Troop level. This is preaching to the choir, but it's incumbent upon Packs and Dens to put on a program that boys want to come to and will give up other committments for. One of the reasons youth sports gets priority (beyond the fact that we are more and more a sports-oriented culture) is that they are fun for the boys and make no demands on the parents. Parents show up, watch a game, buy a hot dog, go home. Cub Scouts has to be FUN, and it has to be enough fun for the boys and hopefully enough for the parents that it overcomes the "problem" of needing parent involvement to make it work. Obviously, boys don't have the final say as to where mom and dad drives them, but if you make it interesting for everyone...nothing new to that advice really. You're always going to struggle with a spectrum of scouts and parents. Some have no idea what the program is about but they saw the flyer and came to roundup. Some think its an after-school program where they can dump their kid for an hour of free babysitting. Others are looking to relive their own childhood to get Johnny every badge available and could care less about fun activities. Here are a few other ideas that have worked for us. -- I have occasionally had luck with going "over the parents heads" directly to the boys. Example: we had a winter camp scheduled and we weren't getting the # of reservations back I had expected. So, the "announce it in the newsletter" approach wasn't working. At the next Pack meeting I brought in some props. Prop group #1: golf clubs, whiffle balls, and orange cones. I asked the boys to guess what it was for. (It was for "snow golf.") Got lots of answers but said, "I'm not going to tell you--you have to come camping to find out." Held up a ziplock bag. "Do you know how to make your own ice cream in this? No? Gotta come to winter camp to find out." Then I started to ask for cheers--cheer if you like sledding! Cheer if you want to go snowshoeing! Cheer if you don't want to take a shower for two days! (Ok, I didn't do that last one.) Well by this time the atmosphere was electric, so I ended with, "Well, then you gotta make sure you get camping forms in!" -- Patches, patches, and more patches. I'm a HUGE fan of the red patch vests at the Cub level. They can be made for just a few bucks and make a great den project. Every den and pack activity should be accompanied by a patch and it should be awarded in front of the group. They cost as little as 69 cents apiece online. As a wise Scouter once told me: "If a boy finishes the first year with a 40-pound patch vest, he will never leave." You get the idea. As boys see what they're missing, they don't want to miss out the next time. Plus, they are GREAT recruiting tools. My son (Bear) comes to roundup to help run some games for the kids while I give the parents the here's-what-scouting-is spiel. But first, he comes up in front of the group with his nearly-full, 360-degree, red vest on. I name off the activity that each of his patches is for. It works.

We've never seen our unit commissioner, in the three years I have been with this pack as a DL and CM. I was told we would only ever expect to see him if there are "problems."

So I don't see this as a training, but of passing out important information. Am I wrong? No, you are right. A roundtable is supposed to be a flow of ideas with the flexibility to accomodate topics in addition to whatever the central theme is. I'd be frustrated.

Oh, don't get me started on this one. Longstanding complaint of mine. Got a boy in my son's Bear den who hasn't attended a meeting in 2 months because he's involved in a school musical production (it's a kid part in a high school production) where the meet 3 hours EACH NIGHT. When the coach says, practice will be on such and such a date and time, no one complains about it being inconvient, conflicting with such and such. People drop $000s on uniforms and gear for sports but complain scouts is too expensive (I'm not talking about finacially strapped parents) People complain about pack dues, minimal den dues, and/or $15 charter fees but will drop 50 bucks at your average little league game at the concession stand. People wait until the last minute to sign up for things in the hope that something better comes along, or they cancel committments to scouting because something else came up. So yes, I agree that scouting is an afterthought for many families, whereas other activities are a priority. I don't know why. What I tell parents as CM is that yes, we recognize there will be conflicts, but that we hope Scouting takes priority at least some of the times. And when people complain to me because our pinewood derby or campout or whatever is on such-and-such a date that there is a practice or whatever, I always tell them that perhaps they will have luck getting the other organize to reschedule so that it doesn't conflict with their scouting committment. Yeah, that doesn't work but it has gotten a few people at least thinking about it.

Well, after much investigation and advice from the forums I am going to present to our PWD committee the idea of replacing double-elimination with a "partial perfect" format. The idea is to get scouts to race more, and to have scouts feel like they are "in it" until the end. The unchangable parameters of the race are that we are racing first by den, and then by pack. We have dens of the following sizes: 4, 5, 7, 10, and 13 (the last 13 are two Bear dens but they will run together for the den-level competition). Two-lane track. Now, the dens of 4 and 5 can probably run in a true "perfect" format, with each car racing each other on different tracks. The den of 7 can probably race each other car but not again on different tracks. But how many rounds would you recommend for the 10 and 13 dens, based on how long it would take? If we do 2 rounds (4 races for each car) for the 13-car den, that gives us 26 races. I think overall we'd like the race part of the derby to take 90 minutes.(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

I know sex sells but come on...."your rack is unreal"??? First it was explaining all the E.D. commercials during football...Now this...

It would be nice to see an entire team standing, with hands in appropriate places, paying attention to the flag and what it represents for the very limited amount of time it takes to sing the song. Agreed. Pulling on your shoulder pads, chewing gum, and looking around is not respectful. What ever happened to standing in a straight line with your hand over your heart? About the flub...yeah, I was pretty shocked at first, but human beings make mistakes and she took ownership of it. Fiddling around during the anthem is not a mistake, it is a choice.

I will admit that the number of "turnaround" stories in these forums, just mentioned in passing in other topics, have surprised me. Not just where leaders were necessarily asked by someone--district, CO, whatever--to fix a problem, but where they simply came into a declining pack or troop with just a few boys and about 0% of the optimal organizational structure, and managed to turn it around and help create a growing program. Those stories seem to happen more frequently at the Pack level than at the troop level, but that's just my impression. I find those stories to be very inspiring. So I'd like to hear more success stories, please...Now's your time to toot your own horn; nobody knows who you are anyway, for the most part.

Here it is. Don't know why it's in the Hispanic section, but it's in English: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/hispanic/english/33832_WEB.pdf

Why not have the whole meeting be games? You said you were done with the badge requirements except for the police station visit. Bring some board games the boys like...bring a box of Legos, split them into 2 groups and give them 10-15 minutes to create a building or scene or device or machine and then present what it is. There's the meeting resource/activity book you can use as well; I tried to find it online but I can't, maybe someone else could point to a link. There are tons of activities there. Large group games--balloon stomp. Easy and lots of fun, involves the adult helpers as well. If you have a linoleum floor, indoor ski races with 8x11 sheets of paper. A game of "go tell it." Even tin can telephones, corny but the kids like it. No offense, but the leave no trace pledge stuff...boring and esoteric especially for 1st graders. All they need to know about LNT at this age is "take nothing but memories, leave nothing but footprints."

I have the opposite view on the blue and gold being a big thing. Traditionally in our pack boys earned badges whenever and everyone crossed over at the end of the year. Our blue and gold was a normal pack meeting in february with ice cream at the end. Well, let's just say there's a little enthusiasm about doing a true banquet this year and the boys are motivated and excited at the prospect of receiving rank badges at it if they are earned. And if you're doing two den meetings a month and have even a reasonably active pack program, the "new" delivery method is no big deal...no stressed parents here. Ceremony is great! Bigger is better!(This message has been edited by 83eagle)

I've heard lots of good things about getting Den Chiefs. They sound great. Been trying to get one for my son's Den for two years now, working with the SM and talking to the troop. No boy scout wants to put forth the effort to make this work. We have only one scout troop within 30 miles so options are limited. Does anybody actually have any luck getting Den chiefs? How?