Scouter99

Sounds like you could just go up there with a shovel for all COL cares. Probably might be the best course of action given the state of things.

That guy is a distraction and annoyance, he's not praiseworthy.

It's easy to be sarcastic, but all kidding aside, spend a week in DSS or CPS and you'll snap out of it when you stop barfing. Is it a serious inconvenience to stagger the youth and adult participants to avoid 1-on-1 contact on the platform? No. So there's no reason not to. Too many people make it too easy to get sarcastic about 2 deep/1-on-1 by conflating them and being ridiculous, but the simple fact of the matter is that no 1-on-1 is the barrier to both abuse and false accusations, and should be taken seriously. Instances of abuse within BSA are 70 times lower than the general public for a reason, and our rules are it.

Sounds like Johnny gets to sleep in the dirt outside.

I also have a lot of lawyers in my troop who constantly conflate 2 deep and 1-on-1, email your DE with your question, and he will give you the definite answer. My reply below is exactly what my DE told me. It doesn't stop the lawyers from continuing to be wrong, but it does stop them from threatening me. As far as nitpicking the wordchoice of "day hike" rather than day trip, they're being idiots. Are all field trips in a field? Swimming is its own issue because of the Safe Swim requirements, but biking, etc that don't have their own unique rules are no different that a day hike. And if they're really pigheaded, you can point out to them that scouts commonly call bike trips "bike hikes" so a day of biking is a "day hike." I don't know why you don't find a new troop. Even if the activity levels are comparable, there has to be a less idiotic troop nearby.

BSA first began coordinating with the Presidential fitness program in 1963, literally 50 years ago. And, yes, ScoutStrong would be a great way to help the boys improve over their 30 days.

Not every trip your troop goes on is going to meet muster for NOA, Camping MB, or OA. There just needs to be an understanding that when it comes time, you're not giving credit where it was not earned.

Oh, hah! I thought you legit didn't know why it would matter. Sorry.

Camping MB and National Outdoor Awards camping badge.

This is a common misunderstanding. 2 Deep is the rule for adult leadership on overnight camping trips. No one-on-ne contact is the rule governing scout-adult contact. 2 Deep, therefore, does not apply to troop meetings, PLCs, day activities approved by the SM, etc. It does not mean that two adults must always be in the presence of each other on a single overnight trip, nor does it mean that two adults must accompany any breakaway group on a single overnight trip. It simply means that if the boys are staying somewhere overnight, there must be two adults with them. No one-on-one contact applies to every scouting situation. It simply means that an adult may not be alone with a youth; you can accomplish that by having a minimum of 2 youths and 1 adult, or 2 adults and 1 youth.

Dudebrah, you say you don't see "day trips" then quote the part that says patrols can go on day hikes by themselves, and that adults are only required for overnight outings.

Sounds like a great opportunity, then!

BP, I was also interested in the adventure programs; cost turned me off. There are plenty of commercial outfits on the New River that offer the same whitewater adventure for hundreds less. If the whitewater is that inflated, I'm sure the others are, too.

I fail to see the issue in regards to offering the MB. First of all, MB counselors apply to the council, not to your parents. The issue is whether or not he uses MB time to promote the Marines or develop a recruiting roster, which would be inappropriate. However, what do you mean by "lead a MB class"? Troop meetings are not merit badge school. If that's your plan, that would be my issue.

I read "under the stars or in a tent" to mean not in a cabin, barracks, museum, etc. A wilderness shelter is not a "tent," would you argue that nights on a survival weekend weren't camping because the boys slept under a pile of sticks and leaves? As JoeBob pointed out, unless the cave has electricity etc, and the only improvement are the platforms, then I would count is as camping.

Chapter 4, "Scouting for Boys," discusses in detail the concepts and specific items BP lifted from Seton, setting the stage with its opening paragraph: "Though the tremendous success of Aids to Scouting led Baden-Powell down the path to youth training, he had failed to recognize what in his manual appealed so strongly to youthful readers-his detailed tips on scouting-and gone off track adopting the medieval knight as the model for his envisioned organization. Seton's Birch-Bark Roll seems to have opened Baden-Powell's eyes to the opportunity he was close to missing, though his initial response to its author gave no indication of its influence on his thinking." He continues, praising Seton's use of woodcraft, Indian lore, and games in contrast to other programs, including BP: "Most youth organizations of the day were Iong on regimentation and short on fun, and Baden-Powell like many others had failed to see the outdoors as a training ground for life." (71) Advancement and the Scout Oath and Law, pg 79: "Yet the similarities were extensive. Woodcraft Indians passed a series of tests to become "first class braves." Scouts similarly graduated from "second class" to "first class." Woodcraft included mastery of knots, fire making, first aid, hiking, and reading wilderness signs; so did Scouting for Boys. Seton listed proficiency tests by which Indians earned 'honors,' 24 of which qualified a member as a 'Sachem.' In Scouting, that acquisition of 24 honor badges brought the status of 'Silver Wolf.' Seton's Woodcraft Indians took a vow and obeyed ten laws; BP's Scouts took an Oath and followed nine laws. "New Indians received a horsehair 'scalp' signifying personal honor; it could be lost through failure in a competition or task, and later regained upon approval by the Tribe Council. The First Class badge of Scouting could similarly be lost, then regained by a good deed as certified by a Court of Honor. "Seton told the Woodcraft Indian: "Hold your word of honour sacred." The First Law of Scouting was, "A Scout's Honour is to be trusted." Seton's Indians were to "Be helpful," while a Scout's duty was "to be useful and to help others." Seton told his Indians: "Obedience is the first duty of the Woodcrafter." Baden-Powell wrote: "A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or Scoutmaster without question." The Birch-Bark Roll instructed Woodcraft Indians: "Be joyful. Seek the joy of being alive." Similarly, according to Scouting for Boys, "A scout goes about with a smile on him and whistling. It cheers him and cheers other people, especially in times of danger, for he keeps it up all the same." Patrols, pg 82 Before BP got hold of the Birch-Bark Roll, he was tinkering with a knighthood theme which didn't appeal to anyone. Knights are the antithesis of a patrol; they're solitary figures on personal quests. Scott quotes Richards' book: "The Birch-Bark Roll offered 'a coherent scheme for organizing boys into manageable self-governing units. Its detailed system of outdoor training, its rules, honors, games, noncompetitive standards of excellence, and even its philosophy that (manhood, not scholarship is the first aim of education,' could not have failed to kindle Baden-Powell's imagination about the possibilities for his own Scouting aspirations. However conscientious Baden-Powell may have been about acknowledging his sources (and in fact he was not overly scrupulous about it), the extraordinary appropriateness of Seton's Indians to what Baden-Powell was hoping to achieve could not have easily been resisted. Beneath the Indian trapping, for which BP had no use, lurked an organizational model that provided solutions for almost every problem he faced and that ... could be translated into the language of Scouting without difficulty.'" Games You've now also introduced games as Seton/Beard's contributions to the detriment of the program, but again you have failed to consider that BP took Seton's games and put them in Scouting for Boys. If BP thought they were good enough to steal for his program, why would you think that they're bad? On page 80: "Setonites also reproached Baden-Powell for lifting games from the novel Two Little Savages, which Seton had sent him along with the Birch-Bark Roll. Seton's "Quicksight" game helped Woodcrafter develop their powers of observation by counting the spots on a card flashed before their eyes; Scouts learned the game as 'Spottyface.' Other games seemed to have been adopted by Baden-Powell, and though some were common, others appeared to have come straight from the pages of the Birch-Bark Roll with, as Seton complained, mere changes in name." And your issue with Seton presiding over the camp fire at Silver Bay? BP led the fire at Brownsea, assigned the patrols, made the names and flags. pg 77. I admire, in general, your dedication to the patrol method and agree with some of your criticisms of more recent changes to the program, but it seems that you have a BP Blindness which is preventing you from acknowledging BPs own learning curve and shortcomings; has you attributing Seton's ideas to BP only where they enhance BP's stature; and (when you don't see BP's appropriations of them) ironically maligning Seton's contributions. BP had no patrol method until he saw Seton's organizational structure and renamed it. He had no advancement structure until he saw Seton's system of merits. BP injected Seton's games into the British program, so we cannot say that Seton's continued use of his own games in the American program were a diversion from BP's methods. BP didn't even invent the term Boy Scout (p 74). What BP had was an abundance of charisma, and a popular book with an existing international audience; what he needed was a way to turn it into a program, and he got that from Seton.

Socializing with other insulated people isn't socializing. It's cutting yourselves off together.

Lucky you, the GtA2013 just nullified the receipt.

I'm no expert, so help me out, here, Kudu: The route to implementation of the Patrol Method that you lay out (that it had to be done in spite of DCB and ETS) and that the Y replaced "BP's outdoor badges" ignores Scott's argument that BP stole both patrols and badges from ETS in the first place. In the case of patrols, why would West need to go over ETS to implement something ETS invented? In the case of badges, how great was the Y's influence, really, outside of the troops chartered to local Y's, when the handbook, written by Seton, included Seton's outdoor badges? I haven't read either of Jeal's books on BP, so I don't have much contrast, but I was also confused by your description of Scott as pro-BSA. As I read the book, I was struck by its contradictions of everything BSA tells us about itself, from calling BP a plagiarizer whose own program was doomed without stealing ideas from ETS, to boldly declaring the London fog legend to be a lie. He himself may be friendly with/to BSA, but the history hardly seems friendly to the BSA party line.

They're USSSP worksheets, MB.org hotlinks them. But I agree they're just a study guide/organizational tool.

There's a RT every month, and if a kid can't do a pullup by the age of 16, then there's something so wrong with him that he qualifies for an exception due to disability. I don't think anyone here is talking about never letting a kid advance over pull-ups, and if someone ran into that, there are lots of troops. We all squawk and point to the GtA's admonishment that no one may change advancement when some hardnose is making things harder, but it means easier, too.

Yep, I loved Scott's book, I've just bought a second copy for the class now that prices have come down. For a long time they were like $50+ on Amazon, but all of a sudden there's a load of used ones cheap. I also picked up Scott's other book while I was at it. I personally plan to cover the personality issues; the official London fog history smells funny to anyone that gives it a second thought, and I think if we're going to do a history MB then there it is warts and all. My really big concern is that one of them starts Googling BP and comes across the crap about him being gay and then I'm stuck answering questions about that.

Ehhhhh, I was really enticed, but I didn't feel like when he got down to it that he really demonstrated his point, just talked about it. His only well-examined examples of youth initiatives (sign language, for example) don't support his thesis (that youth had a firm hand in shaping the movement) because they show the exact opposite in their fizzling-out. I think he also overstates the impact that world jambos had on the American movement. The immediate thought is that only a tiny fraction of youth attended, and when he gets around to that point he simply dismisses it rather than addressing it.

Over vs under is a unit decision. If your unit wears under, then you wear under. If your unit wears over, then you wear over.