Scouter99

The thread about the Minnesota scout who has been sleeping outside for 6 mos seems to have disappeared. My replies aren't in my post history, and neither are jpstodwftexas's posts in his history.

There's a history up to the 1980s here: http://scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0210/d-wwas.html Unfortunately, it skips the updates/changes between the introduction of shorts in the 20s to the adoption of the OdlR uniform in the 80s. There was a brown short-sleeve shirt (alternate to the 4-pocket military-style canvas jacket) as early as the 20s, and those continued until the ~40s. Shorts were also introduced as per the article. So, the following history of the intervening years is written simply from observations of my collection: In the 1940s, the big doughboy jacket and billowed breeches were discontinued, and replaced with green long- and short-sleeve shirts, overseas cap, green pants and shorts, and green canvas gaiters or knee socks. It was officially against the Uniform Guide to hem or cuff the pants, instead, you wore the gaiters and bloused the pants above them, so there was no need to hem the pants (and BSA sold more gaiters ). Sometime between the 40s-early 60s, the collarless shirt was introduced alongside the collared shirt. These uniforms were made with 100% Sanforized cotton. Patches were embroidered on squares of the same material. Sometime in the 60s, the uniform switched from 100% cotton to a blend of 65% Dacron polyester 35% cotton. The color was changed from green to olive. Collarless shorts apparently prevailed in the hearts of Scouts, but collared versions of both long- and short-sleeved shirts were still produced. (Some guys who only ever owned a collarless shirt will insist to the point of shouting that only collarless shirts were available, but I have physical possession of collared shirts from the period, so those guys can bite me.) The overseas cap persisted, but a Mao-style cap was also introduced in the 70s at the same time the red beret was introduced for wear by the Leadership Corps. There was also a weird winter hat with a knit cap rear and baseball-style front. Webbing belts had the same brass buckles you're probably familiar with from the 80s/90s, but instead of the universal emblem, you could change out your buckle with the emblem of each rank on it. I'm unsure about the fate of gaiters in this post-cotton period. I haven't ever seen gaiters in the new olive color, and by this time boots with high tops were prevailing over the Buster Browns-style shoes which absolutely needed a gaiter to keep mud out. Knee socks were held up with elastic/leather sock garters, with little tabs that showed at the calf; dark green tabs for Boy Scouts, red tabs for Explorers. Rank patches were given an overhaul with the "Improved Program" and made very colorful, and were on the oval shape patch we still use. In the early 80s, the Oscar de la Renta uniform was introduced. The fabric was the same as the 1960s and 70s: 65/35 poly/cotton and don't ever let anyone tell you different. The collarless shirt was retired, and a replaced with a new collared khaki shirt with tabs/epaulettes added to the shoulders to distinguish which program the wearer was from (Cubs, Scouts, Varsity, District, National, etc). 100% cotton shirts were available by special order. Pants/shorts were made a darker olive drab, also 65/35. Following the style of the 80s, the shorts were extremely short--when sitting, they were make-sure-your-scrotum-is-not-showing short. National played around with the pockets every few years, sometimes adding or removing small 4th- and 5th snap-close pockets on the thigh. Fast-dry convertible pants were introduced 1 or 2 years before the switch to the Centennial Uniform; they came with a built-in black belt with black plastic buckle; some were sewn in, some were removable. The red beret and ugly Mao cap were discontinued, and a trucker cap was introduced (still ugly). The belts remained the same with a new darker olive drab color, and the buckles were simplified to just the universal emblem. Socks were topped with a red band and offered in crew, ankle, and knee lengths. Gaiters were definitely dead if not earlier. Knee socks were topped with elastic, eliminating the garters. The tooty-fruity rank patches were given plain khaki backs. A very short-lived Activity Uniform was introduced in the 80s: White BSA-branded socks, khaki shorts, and a red polo. If you've got a copy of the "Trail to Eagle" book from the time, you can see scouts wearing it in a few photos. The Centennial Uniform was the latest overhaul of the uniform. It sought to make the uniform more field-friendly by using more sophisticated fabrics (different weaves, but still 64/35 poly/cotton), adding cargo pockets to the shirt and pants, and adopting the convertible experiment; no shorts were offered. The OdlR two-tone concept was kept, with the bottoms' green changing to a deeper forest green, and shirts retaining khaki. All red was removed (epaulettes, socks, troop numerals.) A new hat was created which is a true baseball cap. The long-sleeve short added loops to allow the sleeve to be fastened into a rolled-up position. A small hole inside the sleeve pocket was meant to allow for headphones (but the hole was too small for the jack end of any/every pair of headshones I've ever owned to fit through.) After a couple years, a Nylon shirt was introduced as a more heat-friendly option to the regular shirt; it dries quickly and has a back vent. After a few years, a shorts option was re-introduced with green quick-drying shorts that are meant to double as swimming trunks. Some came with a mesh liner built in, some came without (seems to be luck-of-the-draw); all come with a black draw string, and a plastic zip-seal "pocket" attached inside one of the cargo pockets to keep water-sensitive stuff safe. Socks also received the tech-wear overhaul and come with arch support and wicking fabric, still offered in crew, ankle, and knee lengths. Confusion was rampant with the Centennial Uniform because promotional materials showed some patches in new positions, but no official update to the Uniform and Insignia Guide accompanied the release. It was about a year before the uniform guide was updated, it might have been longer or less than a year (after several months I stopped looking regularly). Confusion also lingered over whether or not red numerals (which were discontinued for Boy Scouts but retained for Cubs) could/should be worn on the Centennial shirt, as well as the red Trained patch (also discontinued/retained for Scouts/Cubs) and red epaulettes. Particularly contentious was whether or not OdlR and Centennial uniforms, with their very similar color scheme, could be mixed and matched. The general rule is that uniforms can be worn until they're worn out, but that different uniforms (doughboy, 40s-50s, 60s-80s, OdlR, Centennial) should not be mixed. But, BSA made clear by 2008 that the Centennial uniform was designed to be "transitional" (http://scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0809/a-design.html) and could be mixed with the OdlR uniform. The difference here is clear: previous uniform changes adopted entirely new color schemes that didn't match the old, but the Centennial and OdlR do not clash.

It's probable that they were just khaki shirts they found somewhere; I've never seen or heard of short sleeve BSA field uniform shirts with tabs.

Lots of recipes for survival kits in Altoids tins or pill bottles or film canisters out there, and boys love being mini-McGuyvers

It's simple: The troop with the most adults on district and/or council committees wins the most points. The 1950s Patrol Leader Handbook has a spreadsheet and points system in it; you can get copies on eBay pretty cheap. It's the blue one with the yelling boy on the cover. There's also an old program for a scored weekend at this website http://dankohn.info/~scouts/ under the "Campcraft" section, titled "Pioneer Weekend" Never tried, it, ran across the page while I was Googling something else.

. . . Did you try looking at the photos or reading the item descriptions? Which shirt has the vented yolk? http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/uniforms-insignia/mens/shirts/men-s-polyester-microfiber-short-sleeve-shirt.html AND http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/uniforms-insignia/mens/shirts/men-s-polyester-microfiber-long-sleeve-shirt.html Which has the seemingly useless tabs on the end of a short sleeve shirt? I've never seen a short-sleeve shirt matching this description, maybe you just saw a long-sleeve shirt with the sleeves button into the short position. Which long sleeve shirt has buttoned tabs when rolling up the sleeves? http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/uniforms-insignia/mens/shirts/centennial-boy-scouttm-male-leader-long-sleeve-cotton-rich-poplin-uniform-shirt.html

Boring.

Floor wear is probably the only reason I don't use one now that I finally found it in the garage after 10 years missing. It has u-shaped bars, but they're more like an extremely shallow W.

That's it. I will no longer be buying Lockheed Martin planes.

Good thing the rest of the committee is with you on that. I've never seen a troop over 50 that is properly boy-led and not rampant with adult-centric "fixes" to make that size sustainable. 8 troop scribes to give everyone their PoR, and silliness like that. It's simply an ego thing, and most of the time it's a racket from one mega fundraiser to the next for that troop RV with satellite TV and 6-burner range If the CC won't let it go, sock him with Baden-Powell: "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two." (Aids to Scoutmastership) Maybe the CC thinks he is 6x better at this than BP, in which case he can make a 100-member troop; or maybe he thinks you're 6x better, in which case he ought to accept your judgement that 38 is enough.

Too much politics. If the troop committee ans SM are truly letting the troop die out intentionally, and are truly keeping the IH out of the loop, and your son is willing to be SM for a good long while, then I would do two things: (1) As UC, keep hands-off with the troop (I'm surprised they assigned you to this troop given the situation with your son to begin with, which is no sleight against you) and (2) have your son sit down with the IH and CoR without you and if the IH wants to keep the troop then he/she needs to make your son the SM. It is, frankly, not the SM's decision whether or not to disband the troop, and if he doesn't want to run a troop his decision is to step down or not, not to kill the troop or not.

Sounds like a party for your belayer on the next climbing trip.

I would encourage anyone interested in the topic (science and politics) to read physicist/historian Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions". It's a philosophy of science which explains how science works within paradigms, and how paradigms change (it's the book that established the concept of a paradigm as we use it now). It deals more with sciences that we think of with the word "science" (physics, chemistry, biology, etc) than with social sciences in large part because social sciences have yet to actually coalesce around paradigms, but its explanation of how scientists come to accept the paradigm that guides their work applies to any scientist. And the bottom line is that scientists are people like anyone else, and as such, they will accept or reject a paradigm as much due to their own political or religious beliefs, or professional interests, or money, or other influences as any other person. For example, the chemist who first isolated oxygen went to his grave denying that oxygen is oxygen, and not "dephlogisticated air"--his entire life's work depended on phlogiston theory chemistry.

One more person who conflates a bad situation with their local unit to "THE BSA." The pack you were with might be obnoxious, that does not make "The BSA" obnoxious.

Again, BD, the question is "Can I bring my younger son with me to Boy Scout campouts?" the context is "Some of the Boy Scout activities seem like a perfect opportunity for me to spend time with my son." The answer to the question being asked is no. The reason is that Boy Scouts is not a father/son program, and younger siblings are more likely than not to be a distraction/hindrance. You might have a situation where you need to bring your younger son, and you might have a younger son that is an outdoors wunderkind, but your comments do not answer the question and they do not fit the context. It's wonderful that you're willing to spend not just your physical resources on your troop, but also intangibles like time with your son when it comes down to trip/no trip, but it's not wonderful that you want to use your extreme situation to give a waiver to best practices in all circumstances. I enjoy a lot of your posts and perspectives, but your martyr complex and automatic personal attacks on anyone that dares disagree with you makes you an insufferable baby at times. The irony of a puffed-up reactionary unable to cope with differing viewpoints without insults like yourself calling someone else "Lord God of Scouting" made for a good chuckle on this side of the screen, I hope you had a wonderful weekend.

It's funny how every thread that basementdweller posts in is about basementdweller. The OP's question is "should I bring my 2nd-grader on Boy Scout trips?" The question is not "please tell me what crazy scenario you can come up with that will probably never apply to anyone but yourself that would justify bringing a 2nd-grader in situations not even remotely similar to your own." The answer is NO.

Definitely, more below My troop did this when I was a youth, and I do it with one patrol from the troop (ASMs have been asked to do it with other patrols, but I'm the only one that has stuck to it). I keep my peace in general, but as someone who's been around for several decades there are times I chime in to keep their minds open to possibilities and remind them how much of their experience depends on simply deciding to do things, and what they can decide to do. It's a very fine line, I guess, is what it boils down to.

From the Guide to Safe Scouting, Camping section: "If a well-meaning [boy Scout] leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers." Boy Scouts is not a father/son program, that's Indian Guides (now called Y Guides). The camping trips are a perfect time to spend time with your Wolf-age son not by taking him along, but by staying home and spending the weekend with him while your older son is away. Your responsibility as an ASM in a troop is not to bond with Junior, it's to work with boys other than your own. Your son is in a troop to learn from men of character other than dad, as noted in the Methods of Scouting: Association with Adults. ASMs in my troop who refuse to camp except when their son is camping are useless. We even had an ASM throw a hissy fit over outdoor training because "he joined Scouts to spend time with his son, not to be taken away from his son." ASMs like this don't understand the program.

When my troop went through Nat'l Supply for some custom patches 5ish yrs ago, I corresponded with a guy from National and the patches came from a licensee/contractor in North Carolina. National Supply does own/run it's own patch machines, they posted a video of Jambo stuff being embroidered on their Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=608178912533478&set=vb.133580719993302&type=2&theater

Yep, the Wayback on BL's site actually just loads the Google Books scans into a frame, including blank Google ad box. Has anyone figured out a way to print from it? I've been using it for a couple years but I haven't found a good way to print so that I can, ya know, use it anywhere except my desk. Also, does anyone know if the British scouting mag "The Scout" has an online archive? I haven't been able to find one, and virtually no old copies on eBay. The super-generic name has made Googling it a real PIA.

Basementdweller has mentioned those annoying adults who didn't earn Eagle, so they're spending their adult time trying. Seems like maybe you've got the opposite issue: never earned it, spend too much time trying to punch holes in it. I didn't earn Eagle, big whoop. I don't spend time much thinking about it in either direction. Is it overrated? Definitely. Should you use your SM bully pulpit to talk it down? Bad idea. What you ought to do is simply emphasize skills over advancing, and your boys will be the kind of scouts and Eagle Scouts that you want.

Well, like I said, I frequent the program subforum much more than this one, and hit the rest when a title looks interesting, and I've never seen a thread disappear in those areas. I would find it hard to believe that there's something special about this subforum that threads only magically disappear on teir own here and nowhere else. Has anyone noticed threads disappear anywhere else?

Just awakened my laptop for the first time in a few days and refreshed the browser to find that the thread "It ain't just Republicans" in regards to US/Obama Administration spying had disappeared, along with any reference to it in my own last posts list. Several weeks ago a couple Trail Life threads disappeared. Are threads disappearing in more mundane areas of the forum? Is there a black hole in this sub forum, or is there an intelligent actor? I personally decided not to participate in this area much anymore, but the possibility that someone is censoring it (except for rules compliance) is not appealing in general.

Speaking in broad terms and without knowing anything about this unit in particular, I would find it hard to believe that the rest of the troop (over 11) are "run" much different than the 11-yr-old patrol. Visit the 12+ part fo the same troop, and if they're as poorly-run as the 11-yr-olds, then keep looking. If they're not, then find a well-run 11-yr-old patrol and then go to the well-run 12+ group afterwards.