Krampus

Respect in its many forms. From respect for authority, elders, each other, one's selt (obesity being in that grouping), etc. The common respect you used to see is gone; simply not there. Some call it old fashioned but looking someone in the eye, using their name, using Mr. or Mrs., shaking hands, etc. Just don't see that anymore....or rarely if ever.

Some localities will not allow camping without a tent. Odd, but true. But I suspect in some locations where west nile is abundant it has more to do with convenience of logistics not having to do a philmont fly + netting for 50+ scouts, as well as for health issues. To be honest I could go either way. I don't see a big deal about either.

Agreed. While there were instances of scouts coming out or scoutmasters being found out, I know my friends knew being gay in scouting was a non-starter.

I get all that. My questions was what criteria other than "I don't think he's ready because xxx" can be used? I ask because if there are no standard critera, such as are outlined in the GTA around what being "active" requires, then any scoutmaster recommendation (or denial) becomes arbitrary.

I highly doubt Scouters go around spouting gay hate speech in the course of doing their duty any more than they spout racial or religious hatred. Sure, there are likely those who feel that way. But I think most Scouters, regardless of their feelings on the subject, spout hate speech or actions in front of scouts.

Meh...you ae a bigt ont to throw people using tents or going on big trips under the bus, but when someone in a good spirited manner puts your own words back at you you get all a tizzy? MB is right, what a chip you have on your shoulder. You think nothing of diss'ing guys who have more than you. Weren't you the one who said certain jokes never get old when called out about "rich white guys"? It's a two way street brother. But understand something, those guys below were not making fun of you or being poor. They were using your anti-tent words against you in a fun-loving fashion.

Not for other awards like the Scouter Key, but I could see how someone would turn down a "purchased" knot. I know BSA says its not (or knot ), but when you donate money and they give you a knot, that's purchased in my book.

Tony for my money it comes down to a few things: 1) Be clear on what the boys will learn and make sure everyone gets through it. Completing TF and a good part of SC are important. Communicate that in your Leader Guide so that folks know what they can expect from your program. 2) Let the boys be hands on, go in depth on the skills taught and use EDGE. Don't just go through the motions. Make sure every kid can learn and demonstrate what they learned. 3) Be inclusive. Look for the kid who is shying away or trying to duck out. Make sure they have a buddy and are having fun. 4) Stick around at the end of the day and make yourself available to leaders or scouts that may have questions. Always appreciated. 5) Have a make-up day on Friday where Scouts can complete anything they missed or did not get. 6) Document who did what. Nothing is more infuriating to a leader than getting home and finding out the credits given at camp were wrong. Most camps give these out on Friday but having a status sheet posted daily would be a good idea. It will keep the guess work out of who needs what and will make reconciling your records at the end of the week easy. 7) Make it fun! You will lose the boys if what you teach is not fun. If teaching knots used EDGE, but then have a knot relay race. If teaching map and compass, do some table work but then have a game. 8) Keep your Instructor-to-Scout ratio low if you can. Ideally 1:5. If you can't do that due to lack of Instructors, ask some of the SMs to help out. Many units have an SM in charge of their first year program and are happy to help at camp. 9) Build an sense of esprit de corps with your lads early. Make them feel united as a group. Not by their unit but by the shared sense of all being first year scouts. 10) If you still have time after all of this, don't forget that some second year scouts may have a requirement or two they need to work on. If possible, have an open session late in the day to teach those in an ad hoc fashion. For example, if a SC scout needs to identify 10 local plants, maybe be prepared to show them. I am sure you will get some great ideas. There are no right answers. Just make sure you teach them well and they can show you. THAT is perhaps the most appreciated thing. Nothing is worse than a Scout who goes to camp and learns nothing.

Was at a RT last month...saw a 15 year old Vigil member. I just had to laugh. Back in the day You could count the Vigil guys in our lodge on one hand and most of them were 17 nearly 18 and Eagles. There were 5, all barely 5ft, standing talking to each other. Trophies for everyone.

This sounds like it is similar to the "Scout Account" thread. There are issues about fund-raising and how that is accounted for and distributed. Since your unit is part of your CO you may run afoul of their 501©(3) status. Always best to run these ideas past your COR before you do them. If they don't know they certainly have an accountant who should.

My town hall was disappointing as well but mostly because leaders were reluctant to express their views in public. I think they may have been reluctant to "come out" on either side of the debate for fear of alienating friends and colleagues. The in-your-face fanatics on both sides have polarized this issue, and any decision, so much that whoever loses is going to feel slighted and oppressed. I have seen emails on both side of the debate. Some have been reasonable and some have been hateful. Par for the course.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. We have sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell policy now. I guess those who are against gays are somehow fooling themselves now that gay scouts don't exist and their son is not currently associating with them now. But given that current policy it sort of gives scouters an "out" if you will in that we are not supposed to ask or know if a scout is gay and, if he is, he has to leave. If this new policy goes into place that all changes and rises issues about what scouters should or should not do if they find out a scout is gay. [quote=MattR;n373527 I talked to my DE and it looks like council's South of the Mason Dixon line and East of Texas (including Texas) are voting against, North and East of the Mississippi are voting for (not sure about Florida). The West coast is for. The center of the country is following the red/blue map. Not sure I follow your geography. Are you saying everything south of PA, north of FL and east of TX are voting against? What I heard from a national employee was the the south (TX, LA, MS, AL, GA, TN, AR, NC, SC, WV) were voting a majority against. Split states in that region were VA and FL. They said OK, KS, NB, ND, SD were split but leaning against. He too characterized it in political map terms but from what I understand the states are weighted much differently. That's about the extent of my knowledge and it is all second hand.

The only thing that changed was your undrstanding. To others it was pretty clear. This is a service he said his lodge provided but an adult who advises the lodge said no. What part about that do you not get? Let me make it easy on you. You drive to the scout shop and ask for a Tenderfoot patch. They tell you they have one but then the manager comes and says the badge is in the back and he does not feel like getting if for you. He's denied you a service the shop provides. Get it now? I'm done on this topic. You don't get it and that's fine. Have a blessed day.

Ok, I will take a crack at this. BD, you simply cannot read. Or maybe it is comprehension that is the issue. Did you miss the part where MB said that the unit-based service was something his lodge used to provide? Did you miss the fact that his scouts and he went through the proper channels to request this service? Did you miss the part where the scout in charge of the lodge said yes to their request by adult advisor said no? Did you miss the part where the higher level adult across all the lodges was also p.o.'d at the local loadge adult for not providing the service as requested? Did you miss the part where MB's own scouts offered to organize and form an ordeal team to assist the lodge in future with ordeal and other such unit based ceremonies? Each lodge is different. Your inability to comprehend what he is saying is nothing short of silly. Unless you know him personally you have no clue whether or not his district or council offer summer tap outs. Guess what? Many do not! What should he do? Drive 9 hours at great expense to get something that is offered by his lodge locally? You are a great one to throw around money and elitism when it rears it's head to your unit, but when someone else tries the low cost approach and follows the boy-led principles you get combative with them? Seriously, try reading slowly and perhaps more than once. The fact you wrote this, "I don't disagree with the Chapter Adult advisor at not wanting to set a precident for doing it at a unit level. It was never intended to be unit based" shows you did not understand a single thing MB posted. So go back and re-read what he wrote before you get all indignant. Or are you p.o.'d because his unit might be able to afford to outfit an OA team (not cheap) and you see this as some sort of class battle? Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.

I'll point out the obvious: BSA is a private membership organization and the liability that adult leaders are exposed to is FAR more than that of a public school. Schools are covered by far more case law and statue than are private organizations. I have already heard of units with parents that have demanded that, should the policy go into effect, that their son be "kept away" from any gay Scouts. I have equally heard of other units where parents have said they will leave if the policy is not adopted. So with this polarization as a background, suppose a Scout comes out to a leader and says he wants it kept quiet. Do you tell his parents? What about those parents that don't want their child around a gay Scout (if known)? You cannot dismiss this with your school analogy so simply. It is not even remotely the same set of circumstances.

You act as if the RT leaders did this on purpose. What if they did a RT on water-based trips and your troop was full of non-swimmers? Would you feel equally indignant? RT is about disucssing topics of interest to units and sometimes that means discussing things that 50% or less of the units would even consider. Qwazse makes a good point of suggesting a topic of "budget memories" or perhaps something similar. But don't hate on other units because they are richer than yours. How would you like it if they hated on your unit because you weren't rich? BTW, love the "rich white boys" dig. Imagine if someone made the opposite comment. For someone who's posts advocate for inclusiveness you can be pretty derisive at times. Let's be equal and fair to everyone.

Agree with Wakib. Sounds like you did all you could and taught your scouts along the way. Well done.

Operationally this will be a nightmare to manage. What happens if the resolution is passed and now a Scout comes out? Do we disclose to the whole troop or keep it a secret? Do we tell the parents of the other Scouts in case they object to having their son sleep in a tent with an openly gay Scout? If we don't disclose to those parents, what liability do the adult leader run into in the event there is an incident? Passing this resolution without clearly guidelines on how to uniformly manage such situations leaves us the leaders open to all sorts of liability and political/social issues we are not equipped to handle. It takes the focus off of why were are there in the first place.