Krampus

It is not a worse outcome if the Scout gets his Eagle. It is not a worse outcome if the troop leaders get in trouble for making up rules and have to change their way of doing things so that it complies with the BSA rules. It WOULD BE a worse outcome if 1) this kid did not make Eagle, and 2) these adults were allowed to get away with what they are doing. That's the crux of this case.

Sure. I can be applied any time you have "assistants" stepping up to take over for absent primaries. But that is a totally different issue then giving APLs credit for a POR. I would argue if I have an APL being PL most of the time, then the PL is not getting POR credit and the APL will get de facto PL credit for fulfilling the role.

I feel for you. That's not good. We had a similar situation but reversed. The adults were invited for what the boys call "adult announcements" to come up and talk. When we were done we tossed it over to the SPL, who had forgotten the meeting plan...had not back up. The kid took his punishment well. He admitted he screwed up and didn't have the materials for the meeting. The PLs took a 10 min break to go get some stuff from the garage to have an impromptu meeting. Wasn't perfect but they took accountability. I say this because things can change. Years ago we used to be your troop. Over a 2-3 year period we were able to change. Wasn't easy, but it worked. It all starts with an SM who wants to let the boys lead AND other adults will to step aside and play a supporting role.

@@Grubdad, sounds like you need to get together with any parents who feel this way and have a chat with the SM. He may not be aware of the situation, my be aware but have political issues he's dealing with or, I hope is not the case, is aware but doesn't think it is a big deal. In any case, he needs to know how you feel and your observations. I am hoping for your sake he's just a good guy who has missed this. That's a fixable situation. If it is more political than that you might have your work cut out for you.

@@Beavah, you saying it wouldn't be an injustice for a scout to be denied his Eagle because of a few adults adding requirements? I think you need to expand your definition. Let's be clear: This is NOT adults asking a guy to camp more. You are WAY oversimplifying things.

APLs are like vice presidents...you never know they are there until you look on a roster.

Let's write a Scouter fiction book. We've got some cool names brewing here. [snaps fingers Bob Fosse style]

Like what? What do you do that the units don't?

@@Eagle94-A1 come to Texas. We get up at 6:30, coffee is on, we have one ASM who gets up early to make breakfast. The boys get up at 7 and are done by 8:30. If they screw up KP they're cleaning dishes before dinner. We're still strict on some things but we let the boys learn.

Commitment to what? In my area they wear sashes, they clear brush a few weekends a year, they have boring meetings with PowerPoint. That's about it. Not sure what we think these guys are joining. It's not the OA of yesteryear. It's a vote, a sash and a flap. Haven't seen much more than that.

We used Venture Patrols. Worked better and did not decapitate the youth leadership.

You don't want to hike up The Priest. https://virginiatrailguide.com/2009/06/17/the-priest/

Scouts should be about exploring and trying new things, even if you fail miserably. If BSA thinks they can do it the unit should let him. I did my first 250 miles on the AT at 13. I did 100 miles on the C&O canal at 12. You'd be surprised what young kids can do it given a chance.

That's odd that a third party offers protection. I suspect it is very limited protection. Usually if a purchaser users a third party, with links to the purchasers bank account, and the purchaser gets hacked, the only liability the third party will refund is the amount of the transaction and NOT the money siphoned out of the bank account from the breech of the third parties transaction data. I would advise against using a third party transaction aggregator like that. Even PayPal has limitations on how much you can get back if their transaction or data stores are hacked to reveal you bank account data.

Sounds like we agree that the picture of an Eagle as leader does not have to be the Norman Rockwell painting that so many parents may have in their mind.

Agreed. Other people are NOT going to consider your time and effort. But you do, so you say "I'm collecting today, no other day. Miss today you have to drop it by my house. I am going to the bank only on Saturday. Miss that and you cannot go." Your time spent = one meeting, one trip to the bank. If people are not going to value your time, maybe they will value their own time...especially when having to drive out of their way because they missed your office hours at the meeting.

Does the retailer offer protection of the transaction? In other words, if someone hacks by bank directly (checking or savings) I am covered under their federal insurance. If a third party processor, to which I have my accounts linked, gets hacked and my money transferred I am not covered by federal banking insurance. Does the third party processor guarantee their security and that of your funds?

What is that? Is that in addition to the age matrix?

It DOES mean something. The issue is how to quantify it in a standard fashion. If a Scout is demonstrates 11 of 12 laws all the time but misses one frequently, does he get signed off? I think there's a spectrum here: Rubber Stampers: Probably a small percentage that simply sign anything to move the Scout along. The Reviewers: Those folks who take the time to discuss on each requirement impacted the Scout, what they learned and how they grew from it. I suspect that is most of the people here. Hopefully most of the Scouters in general. The Nitpickers: These are the barrier-builders, those folks who don't read or go based on what they *think* is right. I suspect those are a small percentage too.

Well, maybe. Are there other troops in your area that have more activities geared toward younger Scouts? To be honest, unless the activities being done are not allowed under the BSA Age Appropriate Guidelines I see no reason NOT to allow your son to go. He's a member of the unit. He's paid his money. If the events are on the matrix and within his age range, then he should get the chance to attend. It is up to the adults and other Scouts to make sure he's trained and ready to go. That's what Scouting is. He should NOT have to wait. He's missing out IMHO. For example: We had a Philmont training trip planned. A younger Scout wanted to go. We spoke to him about gear prep, etc. He had all the gear. The pack swallowed him, but he could carry it. He went, had a blast and was only a minor hindrance. The older Scouts liked the fact he was trying. He became a de facto "mascot" of the older guys.

Buy him one of these.

@s'morestashe there are a lot of questions left open but I will answer you how I know most troops in my area work. Most join in Jan-Mar. Within the first 2-3 months they earn Scout. It used to be faster because the requirements for Scout were so similar to Arrow of Light we could usually get them Scout in the first month. Tenderfoot would take until summer camp (usually in July). We have a first year scout program that meets on one Sunday a month which goes over TF requirements in detail. We also cover requirements at camp outs; sometimes at troop meetings as part of a game or activity. Second and First Class requirements are earned during the 12-18 months. Most of the SC requirements are covered at summer camp. About 1/3 of the FC requirements are covered at summer camp. The boys who attend troop meetings, camp outs, summer camp and the first year scout meetings usually make First Class within 12-14 months. Boys who miss camp outs tend to fall behind because the cooking requirements are handled on those camp outs, so if you miss them you lose out. I'm curious about your comment about the activities not being age appropriate. Troops SHOULD BE putting together a program that has something to offer for ALL Scouts. For example, we recently had a float trip. The younger Scouts were allowed to go on the trip but a shorter trek; the older guys went on a longer trek. They all trained the same (swim test, float safety practice, canoe practice).

My wife was in finance for 25 years. She broke it down for me like this: Payment is a process, whether electronic or paper. There is a fee for electronic transactions, sometimes on both ends (sender and receiver). Check your bank and processor. There are hidden costs (e.g., one's time, gas) to process paper transactions. The key to reducing the cost of paper transactions is not to reduce the amount of paper (e.g., checks), it is to reduce the trips to the bank. You can deposit 20+ checks per transaction now. They are itemized and do not require a deposit slip. They do require review to make sure that they were processed correctly. Reporting and money management has online tools which make all this easier. Online transactions may reduce the number of trips to the bank, BUT ONLY if you don't limit your trips to begin with. The key is to figure out how much the electronic transactions cost you versus how much the paper transactions cost you (including time spent). Once you know this you will know if it makes sense to accept electronic payments.

Hand him this and tell him to enjoy his reading.