meyerc13

Our Pack recently celebrated its 75th Anniversary, and as part of that process I acquired Cub Scout handbooks from the year our Pack was founded (1940). Reading those was a very eye opening experience. In addition to learning that boxing was once considered an important Cub Scout Skill to learn (clearly the risk management team hadn't come into being yet!), it was interesting to see that back then you could complete requirements for earlier ranks, no matter what age you joined Cub Scouts. I have a later handbook that gave you the option - you can either go back and earn the earlier ranks, or start working on the Webelos requirements. I wonder if it was still this way today if we'd lose as many kids as we do because of Sports. I know for a fact that my Pack lost some boys because the parents made it an either/or between Sports and Scouts. Why can't a boy participate in Sports during Sept-Oct, and Scouts from Nov-March, and then Sports again the Spring? For many parents, they don't see that as an option because they know how difficult it would be to complete rank requirements in less than five months between their sons' sport seasons (tent camping in Wisconsin in those months isn't feasible for Cub Scouts under the G2SS). They view rank advancement as the goal - not having fun. Rank Advancement is important, but in my opinion it should never take priority over Cub Scouts being fun.

As others have said - the answer to the question will vary by camp. Our Council has two one camp that runs fifteen 3 day sessions of Cub Scout Resident Camp. They have another camp that runs fifteen 3 day sessions of Webelos Resident Camp. They have another camp that runs one 3 day session of Webelos Resident Camp, following by one 3 day session of Cub Scout Resident Camp. The dedicated CS Camp (Campers stay in themed cabins) is like this: Day 1 - Check-in mid-afternoon, Swim Test, Dinner, Campwide campfire Day 2 - AM: Either Ranges (Archery & BB), Waterfront (Boating & Swimming), or Nature Hike and Obstacle Course. PM: Switch to another area. Day 3 - AM: Switch to the last area you haven't done. PM: Open Program (revisit ranges, waterfront, etc. but also additional things like crafts are offered). Day 4 - AM: Go Home after Breakfast (mid to late morning). The dedicated Webelos Camp (campers sleep in camp tents) is like this: Day 1 - Check-in mid-afternoon, Swim Test, Dinner, Campwide campfire Day 2 - AM: Work on two Adventures you selected (two classes, roughly an hour or so each); PM: Open Program (Ranges, Waterfront, etc.) Day 3 - AM: Work on two Adventures you selected (two classes, roughly an hour or so each); PM: Open Program (Ranges, Waterfront, etc.); Campwide campfire Day 4 - AM: Go home after Breakfast (mid to late morning) The camp that offers one week of Webelos and Cub Scout Resident camp (campers sleep in personal tents) is somewhat similar, but programming begins on Day 1 after the opening ceremony (which happens after swim tests and health checks). They also have open programming in the evening of Day 2. On Day 3 in the afternoon they have campwide games. I think they have more open programming in the evening of Day 3, but I had to leave early so I'm not 100% on that. I think my main point is that as you can see, different camps do it differently, sometimes even within the same Council. Your best bet is to check with the Camp Director and/or Program Director for the camp. They should be able to provide you with a copy of the high level schedule by now.

Interesting, never heard about this. Our District couldn't even put together a district-wide PWD, much less a Council-wide. A National PWD... I wonder how many photo finishes there are going to be. I know just at our Pack level the fastest cars were all very closely matched. You can only do so much to optimize weight distribution and reduce friction... since most of these cars are likely to be hitting that sweet spot, I suspect some very close races will be had.

@ - I think that is a fine plan. Ideally, a Cubmaster would step down to Assistant in the Spring of their son's 4th grade Webelos year (around now), allowing their replacement to run the show from Fall Recruiting through Spring rank advancement, while having backup around to offer advice and support throughout that year. That would be the ideal situation, but the sad reality is it rarely works that way. Also, think about spending an additional year as a Pack Trainer. The job responsibilities aren't huge, but they are important. As mentioned above, the Pack Trainer should do the new parent orientation - allowing the front line leadership free to lead the boys. The Pack Trainer can also make sure that new Den Leaders have a mentor for the first few months, offering tips and suggestions.

The boys do experience it together - as one of the first things they do as Webelos. And then they experience it again and again and again... the way our Pack sees it, the Scouting Adventure isn't something you do once and done - it's the way that we run our Webelos program from Day 1 until the day they cross over. Attending Troop Meetings, using the Patrol Method (to a degree), attending Troop campouts, tying knots and using a pocket knife - these are ongoing things that every Webelos Scout should be doing. And when they complete the requirements - they complete the Adventure - whether it was 'scheduled' on our calendar for that month or not. Is this Boy Scouts lite? Yes, it probably is. But with kids having gone through three years of Scouting already (soon to be four with the Lions program), they need a change of pace to keep them engaged. We slowly immerse them into the patrol method, first having them elect a denner to serve as their 'Patrol Leader,' come up with a patrol name, emblem, flag, yell, etc. At first, the Den Leader does much of the planning, but month after month we include the boys in more and more of the planning so that they can get a feel for what Boy Scouts is really about. I've got to say thank you for the hard work that you and others put in to the new program - overall I think it is a success. However, there are some things that you got wrong - and this Adventure is one of them, in my opinion (and I'm not alone in this - I've heard much the same from other Packs in our District). The BSA has a terrible time at retaining youth from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts. One Troop visit and campout, plus one month of using the patrol method in the fifth grade - that's not going to keep the boys engaged through Arrow of Light - much less get them to crossover. I know you guys were so fixed on everything being an adventure, but I think you missed the boat on this one. These requirements, like the Cyberchip, should have been part of the Webelos rank requirements, not a separate Adventure. And these requirements should have been split between Webelos and AoL - maybe visit one Troop, come up with a Patrol name/flag/etc., elect a denner, and do one event with a Troop that isn't a Troop Meeting for Webelos; and then visit additional Troops, attend a campout, and have each boy plan an Adventure for AoL. To further support my stance - the BSA itself recommends that LDS units use a rolling calendar of 12 months of adventures. So if a boy turns 10 the month before the Scouting Adventure - that's the first Adventure he'd do. So if it is okay for LDS units, how can you tell us with a straight face that non-LDS units shouldn't work on the Scouting Adventure first? I really hope that the BSA re-evaluates this program in a couple of years and revises the Adventure requirements. There are definitely some issues with the new program. The top four, in my opinion: 1.) Not enough Outings in the Wolf year (if you go by the Den Leaders Guide meeting plans) 2.) Way too many compound Adventures in the Bear year - Combining Cooking/Camping/Weather/Knots/Campfire; or Hiking/Animals/Plants; or Citizenship/Law Enforcement/History/Energy Conservation... it's just too much. Having had a son who was a Webelos, and filling in as a Bear Den Leader - there was way too much going on in the Bear requirements compared to any other rank. Comments on here and from other units in my District echo what I've said about Bear - so it isn't just me. 3.) The Scouting Adventure shouldn't be just an AoL requirement - this should be an integral requirement of both the Webelos and Arrow of Light years. 4.) Bring back something like this for the new program. I know this isn't the preferred method of delivery - but the fact is there are some units with less boys than the OP's den from this thread. When you have 10 or less boys in a Pack, you can't split them into five dens. They aren't going to experience the Cub Scout program fully that way. By bringing the various ages together, they'll have more fun with a larger group - even if it means that they might be working ahead on some Adventure requirements. I know it isn't ideal - but it is reality. Right now these tiny Packs are really struggling with the new program because they no longer have a resource like the Alternative Delivery Manuals available to them. Other than those four, I think overall the new program works. There may be parts of other adventures that need tweaking, but for the most part I haven't heard of any Adventures that people really hated, and Advancement is so much simpler now than it used to be. So I applaud you for your hard work and the overall output - but right now I think I'd have to grade the new program as a B-. There's definitely some opportunity to fix a few things to bring the new program to the A+++ level.

That's not how Webelos and Arrow of Light work under the new program. If I remember correctly, unlike other ranks where boys advance in the BSA's system on 6/1, all Webelos have always been classified as just "Webelos." Under the new program, boys can earn the nine required and five elective adventures for Webelos and Arrow of Light in any order (see page 12 here). If your Webelos den completed the requirements for the Webelos badge in February, you could and should have immediately started working on the requirements for Arrow of Light. Any additional electives earned by your den since February count toward the AoL elective requirements. In fact, when I train new Webelos Den Leaders, I recommend that the first adventure they start working on is the Scouting Adventure. True, it doesn't count toward the Webelos rank, but it does lay out a set of requirements that should guide the boys' entire Webelos experience. Visiting Troops, attending campouts and day long events with Troops, practicing the patrol method - those things should be done regularly for all Webelos dens. Also, I remind them that our goal with 5th graders is to get them to cross-over to Boy Scouts with a few months left before summer so that the boys can make plans to attend summer camp with their new Troops. By spending their 4th grade year earning extra electives whenever possible (Pin Days, Camp, etc.), they'll have less to do in the fall before they can crossover. I also have to admit that if you were a Den Leader in the Pack for which I'm Cubmaster, that I'd be deeply disturbed by your suggestion that your den is full. If your son's best friend wanted to join in the fall, you'd turn him away? If so, you've probably caused that boy to give up on Scouting for good. If the boy is really passionate about it, perhaps he'll seek out another Pack. Even if your son's best friend is already in the Pack, do you know the same is true for all the other nine boys in the den? I've seen the Girl Scouts at my daughter's school do this to my daughter, and it really crushed her to hear that the local Girl Scout Troop was 'full.' I agree that 10 boys is a lot for a den, but the solution isn't to turn away additional boys, the solution is to split the den into two. This works especially well for Webelos, just make two 'Patrols' within the dens and recruit a second Den Leader or an Assistant to help lead the other 'patrol'. Frankly, having had dens with 10-12 boys and dens with 3-4 boys, I can definitively say that a Pack functions best with 5-8 boys in a den. Less than five and the den will struggle, and more than eight and the den becomes too large to give each boy his turn to fully experience the activities. Your ten boy den really should have been split down the middle long ago to give the boys the best Scouting experience possible.

Our Council merged with another about four years ago. The lodges were forced to merge as well about a year later. About two years ago, the new larger Council announced its ten year plan for its properties. It was decided (not by those of us volunteering and wearing the tan shirts) that it would be in the Council's best interest to sell several properties. Two camps have already been sold, both from the larger of the two Councils (the one that kept its name in the merger). Council mergers are always interesting, but are really nothing new. The one Council I'm in today, is the culmination of a dozen different Councils merging at various points in time over the course of.100 years.

You might find this helpful: http://cubscoutideas.com/3744/connections-in-the-2015-cub-scout-program-changes/ Under the old program, the BSA put out something called the Alternative Delivery System Manual, which combined requirements from all age levels into one den meeting plan. It was a great resource for small Packs with few boys at some age levels and not enough den leaders. There are two different versions of the manual, so that the exact same material wouldn't be repeated from year to year. If you look at this guide I've linked, you'll see that there are quite a few requirements that repeat at some point under the new program. This is also useful if you are trying to have dens working on similar themes during a certain month.

I'll add another vote for Scoutbook. When the BSA acquired it about a year ago, our Pack decided to give it a try. Now, we all love it and can't imagine going back to paper. No more flipping through handbooks to see what was done outside of den meetings - I just login to Scoutbook and I can see what requirements need to be approved. Once all requirements for an Adventure are approved, the Advancement Chair can see what needs to be purchased. Once purchased, he can track what was awarded (and who wasn't at the Pack Meeting and hence wasn't awarded)... it's just a great system and being owned by the BSA is the most likely to stay in synch with future changes.

I wonder if you've read "Rocks in my backpack" by Tom Sholes? It's been a while since I read it, but he was a Scoutmaster for a successful Troop that over time incorporated more of Venturing into the program. Might be a good and enjoyable read for a Venture Crew Adviser.

This is so true! There are so many requirements jammed into some of the bear adventures, that you'll have a lot of half finished adventures until close to the end of the year. If you can get a Pack Overnighter scheduled that all of the Bears can attend, you'll be in good shape for completing Bear Necessities. If the Scouts don't attend, then you'll be in trouble. You might try scheduling an all day outdoor event for the den and working on the camping/cooking/hiking/campfire requirements. Bear Claws is an easy adventure, good for the winter months when you are stuck indoors. Fur, Feathers, and Ferns is probably best left until Spring. Grin and Bear It is fun, but needs to be coordinated with the Pack - we used the Cub Scout Carnival as our Spring Recruiting event. If I had to do it again, I think I'd move Paws for Action up to be the second adventure, right after Bear Necessities. Those two both have so much going on that you might need extra time to complete some requirements. By starting them early, you'll have less headaches down the road. Bear has some of the best Electives - Baloo the Builder, a Bear Goes Fishing, Critter Care, Forensics, Robotics... Too many to do 2 meetings plus an outing for each one. I'd recommend picking a few, scheduling outings (which might not be during your normal meeting time), covering enough of the requirements in a den meeting that the boys get a taste for it, and if necessary leaving a few simple requirements for them to work on at home. Bear is in my opinion the hardest rank in the new program, which I say after studying the requirements, handbooks, and leader guides for all of them quite thoroughly, having watched my son complete his Webelos and Arrow of Light in 11 months under the new program, and having filled in as Den Leader for a Bear den. Wolf doesn't have as many outings, which makes it easier to complete things in den meetings. Webelos and Arrow of Light have a lot of requirements you can work on by yourself, 'telling your den' or den leader about what you did. Tiger you have parents with the Scout and engaged, which makes it easier to push through many requirements quickly. Bear is a bear... no doubt about it. It has the most potential, but don't be surprised if the boys aren't earning a belt loop every month like the other dens. We have quite a few boys who are getting a whole slew of belt loops in the last two months, but for things they started working on in September and October.

This year we only had two second year Webelos, so they usually met with the first year Webelos and did most of their advancement outside of the den meetings (at summer camp, Webelos Pin Days, etc.). Since the adventures for Webelos can be earned in any order, our Pack decided that next year we'd continue having joint meetings. The electives can count toward either rank, the Scouting Adventure is one that should be continuous throughout the boys' time as Webelos, and the Cooking, Hiking, Camping, and First Aid are also good ones to repeat both years (and some of those things at every camp-out. That leaves the Fitness and the Citizenship requirements, which could be repeated or could be break-out sessions where the boys each year would go off and do just those pins by themselves. I don't see why this shouldn't be a feasible way to handle Webelos; keeping the boys on track for advancement.

But Cub Scouting is supposed to be a year round program. Waiting until September or October to hold a camp-out is what put a lot of units into the mess they are now in.

I'm not saying we are separating them, I'm saying that a Bear has to do all of those things to complete a single required Adventure (which happens to be the one Adventure most of the kids in our Bear den are stuck on). In Webelos, you would earn 2-3 require Adventures for doing the same thing. You don't have to take my word for it, look at the requirements (they are online). Webelos is easier than Bear. It makes no sense, but it is what it is.

First off, debrief the Tiger leader from this year. Where did he or she go for outings? Were any requirements harder than others? Anything that didn't work? Anything that was a hit? Any handouts or notes that he or she can share with you? For our Tiger den, since the leader was new to the Pack I kicked off the first adventure. We started with Good Knights, because a.) it is fun, and b.) it talks about the Scout Oath, Law, and allows you to establish a den code of conduct.

You could try small zipped plastic bags that you can find in the craft section at Wal Mart or at any craft store. I think 100 bags will run you about $3, I've seen 500 bags sell for less than $10. The bags are used for various crafts like beads. I have a pack of 2"x3" sitting on my desk, but I've seen other sizes that would also work.

1.) Not true. The requirements were available, but not the leader guides or handbooks. Those weren't available until May. 2.) In Bears, camping, cooking, weather, knots, and a campfire program are all part of Bear Necessities. In Webelos, camping and cooking are two separate adventures. In Bears, animals and plants are both part of Fur, Feathers, and Ferns (not to mention hiking is also included). That's three separate adventures in Webelos (Into the Woods, Into the Wild, Webelos Walkabout). In Bear, 'Paws for Action' includes law enforcement, history, citizenship, and energy conservation. In Webelos, that is covered by 'Building a Better World' and 'Build my own Hero'. While each Webelos adventure may have extra requirements, they are typically things you can do at home on your own. In Bear, many of the requirements I've outlined here aren't easily done on your own (and in fact some can't be done on your own as they are written because they include statements such as "take turns with your den members."

Respectfully, I have to ask how many of you Boy Scout leaders who are chiming in on this discussion have served as a Den Leader under the new requirements that were implemented a year ago? First off, the handbooks and leaders guides became available to us just weeks before the new program started on June 1st, 2015. So we had no time to prepare lesson plans, build events into our annual program plan, schedule summer events to complete requirements, etc. So for this past year, I won't fault any leaders who struggled to complete the requirements. Second, unless you've studied the requirements, frankly I'm afraid a lot of you don't know what you are talking about. In their infinite wisdom, the way some of the new requirements were written by national, a kid can't complete them as written if they miss the den meeting where the requirement was covered. Third, in at least one of the requirements the BSA sets the precedence that "you may skip this requirement." (Bear Elective Adventure: Critter Care, requirement 4). Why is it okay to skip some requirements but not others? I don't know why they didn't write this as "complete x of the following" instead. Fourth, by no stretch are the new requirements balanced and equal. I am quite convinced that the Bear requirements are much more difficult than the Webelos requirements. How does that make any sense? Webelos is supposed to be harder, yet it isn't. I'm not going to pass through some kid who missed half the meetings and didn't put in the effort, but if a kid was sick the day we did the Cub Scout Carnival and the requirement states "Help younger Cub Scouts take part in one of the events at the Cub Scout carnival," you're saying we shouldn't let that boy advance? This isn't Boy Scouts, this is Cub Scouts, and these new requirements are a mess when it comes to things that can't be done at home, at least as the requirement is written. Which puts Cub Scout leaders on a slippery slope - if we have to alter half of the requirements to make them achievable if a kid is sick and misses a meeting, then where do the modifications stop? I really wish they had done more 'beta testing' of the requirements with experienced leaders. If I had been given the chance, I could have fixed 99% of the problems with the new requirements in one good day of editing. I can completely understand the attitude of "Do Your Best" when it comes to these requirements, because that's the position the BSA left us in. It's unfortunate, because I suspect many of our local units are taking liberties with the camping requirements, which I think shouldn't be skipped, modified, or otherwise changed. Like I said, the BSA put us on a slippery slope, and a good technical editor (someone with experience in Scouting and writing requirements) could have alleviated most of the problems.

It's interesting to see how differently different Councils handle Cub Scout Camping. When I was a Cub and Boy Scout 25-15 years ago, our Council ran Cub Scout Day Camp, but different from what you describe. Each session was 1 day long, and we ran 15 sessions over the course of three weeks. So each day was the same, but with a new group of Cubs. Cub Scout Day Camp ran after Boy Scout camping, so they used the Boy Scout camp staff, along with a few additional staff members to cover for staff members who had to go back to school early. Now, we have Cub Scout and Webelos Resident Camps. They run fifteen sessions of each, each session being 3 days/nights long. These run on their own dedicated camp properties (former Boy Scout camps). With that said, as a Scouter I can't offer much advice, but as a parent I can (my children attend other day camps for Karate, Dance, etc.). I'm lucky that both my kids are gifted, they learn extremely quickly and have a non-stop thirst for knowledge. They also both seem to do well with structure to their day. When they aren't in school, they tend to get very bored and flounder around a bit. So we try to find as many activities as we can to fill their weeks during the summer - summer school, day camps, etc. With that said, our weekends during the summer are often busy. We go camping, have family obligations, family vacations, etc. So for my family, if we were used to a Cub Scout Day Camp, and it switched to a series of Saturdays, it wouldn't really fit our needs. We'd try to make arrangements for our son to attend as much as possible, because we love Scouting, but I question how successful we'd be.

It's funny, I was having this same conversation with our District Execs a week ago. I understand the intent of not asking Lions to participate in camping, fundraising, etc. We're trying to ease them into the program and give them a taste of Scouting, but we don't want them to be overwhelmed. With that said, it only really works for boys who don't have an older sibling already in the program. It's hard to tell little Timmy Johnson that he can't sell popcorn and earn cool prizes when his big brother Tommy Johnson can earn those cool prizes. Likewise, it's hard to tell little Timmy that he can't come on the Pack Overnighter when the rest of his family (including his younger sister Susie) can attend the campout. So now we are on a slippery slope once again. If we invite Timmy to participate in those activities, what about Timmy's Den mates Sammy Smith and Bobby Roberts and Matthew Michaels? When they see Timmy doing those cool things, are we seriously going to tell them that they aren't welcome? I think what we are going to have to stress is that any Pack activity is open to the Lions as Guests, but that they aren't required or expected to participate. If a family camps regularly, they may want their young Lion to attend a Pack Overnighter, and he may be just fine if he has been camping since he was too young to walk. This is a case where we will all have to use a little common sense, since we know that the folks at National sometimes seem to be a bit short in that department.

I think a lot of people don't understand what the Pack Trainer could be. Initially my wife served as our Pack Trainer, basically making sure that everyone did YPT and Position Specific Training. Also pointing out when upcoming District/Council training sessions were (University of Scouting, BALOO, etc.). That's definitely part of it, but the position can be so much more. First, the Pack Trainer is responsible for the new parent orientation. This is a huge responsibility, set the stage right and the whole show will run smoothly. If you mess it up, don't be surprised when nobody wants to help out. My wife must have done well this past fall, three different people stepped up to be Tiger Den Leader the next week. To me, the key between a good Pack Trainer and an excellent Pack Trainer is this line form the job description: "helps leaders and parents understand purposes, policies, and procedures of the Cub Scouting program." How many of us had any on-the-job training in our Cub Scout roles? By this, I don't mean that we were handed a Leader Guide and told "Good Luck!!" I mean, how many were mentored in our roles? Probably not many. To me, as Pack Trainer I can use the position to sit in on Den Meetings, and offer feedback and advice to Den Leaders. I can mentor the Cubmaster who is succeeding me. I can mentor the Pack Committee on what responsibilities fall to the Committee, vs, which fall to the Cubmaster (long story short, before me the Cubmaster did everything, there was no active Committee. When I came in, at the start I had to do everything, and over time have shed much of the roles that should have fallen on the Committee, but there is still a tendency to "Ask Chris" when in reality on some of these things it should really be the Committee "Informing Chris"). I'm really looking forward to the Pack Trainer role, and plan to make a nuisance of myself (but in a nice way). My Pack is a million times healthier than it was when I became Cubmaster, but they still have room to improve. I am going to challenge each of them to grow in their role, because I know we are 'this close' to being the model Pack. Next year is the last year for the Committee Chair, so I want him to step down by early Fall and let someone else step up and succeed him. Our Webelos Den Leader hasn't scheduled a single Den overnighter, I plan to push him on that point. Not all of our Dens are letting boys and their parents help run an adventure, and use the Denner cords as part of it... I plan to push them on that. None of these things are big deals, but likewise none take a ton of effort, so why aren't we doing them? I'm going to have the documentation to back me up on each of these, but these are all little things that we can do to take us from a great Pack, to the best Pack in town. Don't worry, I'm not going to be a bully, but a friend and helper. I've got years of leadership experience through my job and my employees universally love me, so I must be doing something right. I'm going to challenge my Pack, but help, guide, and lead them to all be better in their positions. Plus, I know many of the little things I want to see change will make their roles easier in the long run. I'm really looking forward to it, but I wonder if they realize what they have gotten themselves into by freeing me from the Cubmaster, Den Leader, and Committee tasks I was still performing. Just through that process alone we've moved the Pack in a better direction, but I don't intend to stop when I swap out the patch on my left sleeve, they need to keep builiding the momentum to carry the Pack into its next 75 years.

Our Pack serves three of the most economically disadvantaged schools in our District. They are all in the same inner city neighborhood, and one of them has the City homeless shelter in its area. Every year, right around recruiting time Goodwill puts out its Halloween costumes. For whatever reason, Scout Uniforms fall into their Halloween section. I hit up every Goodwill within reasonable driving distances several times in August-October and buy any uniform with patches sewn on (I've spent way too much time removing glue residue to even consider doing that again). Our Pack buys the Council patch (which by itself is $5, so I definitely pick up any uniform that has our Council's patch already on it), unit numbers, and international Scouting crest. At our new parent orientation, I announce that our Pack never wants to make financial need be the reason that a boy doesn't participate in Scouting. I let everyone know that the Pack has uniforms available. Generally we give out most of them each year. On one occasion the Pack had to go out and buy a uniform brand new for one boy (he was a larger size than I was able to find). To cut down on people gluing patches on these loaner shirts, we bought some of the vinyl diamond emblem holders and gave those out along with the Bobcat badge once the boy earned that. It takes some coordination, but generally we find an announcement at the first few meetings is all it takes to get parents who need it to take advantage of the program. This year we still have a few extra shirts, but we probably gave out a dozen (maybe more) shirts to families who needed it. To some of these families the $25 for the shirt, and the $15 or so for the initial patches is a lot of money. Add in the neckerchief, slide, belt, hat, pants, socks and it becomes crazy expensive. The one thing I almost never find is belts... I wonder with the new program using so many belt loops if we'll begin to see more Cub Scout belts donated to thrift shops.

Our District has a Webelos Weekend for 4th Grade Webelos. In that, they have a ceremony where they 'bless' arrows for the boys and challenge them to continue on their path to Arrow of Light and Boy Scouts. If your area doesn't have something like that, maybe you can do that at a Pack level.

When my son joined our Pack as a Tiger, I became his Den Leader. Before that year was up, I became Cubmaster (they saw my Eagle knot from a mile away). At that point, the Pack was down to somewhere around 10 boys and was failing. In my first year, we lost a couple of den leaders, lost their sons and their sons' friends, but my wife and I worked our behinds off to recruit enough boys to keep the Pack around that same number. Over the next few years my wife and I (and later some really passionate committee members and Den Leaders), put in a lot of time helping that Pack go from red to green in our UC's eyes. We're now around 30 boys and in the best shape we've been in a long, long time. With my son just having crossed over into Boy Scouts, it was time for me to step aside and let the next generation step up. Yet at the same time I didn't want to completely walk away because I don't want this Pack to slide backwards. So next year I've decided that I could best help this Pack as Pack Trainer. As KDD pointed out, that's a perfect role for an experienced Cub Scout leader who isn't ready to walk away. Much less commitment than any 'front line' position, still a member of the Pack Committee, and able to make sure the next generation of leaders knows how do deliver the Cub Scout program the right way. Of course, if you have more than one leader who wants to stick around and help, there are many other roles behind the scenes where I know an experienced Scouter can help. The key is to let the next generation spread their wings and assume the leadership roles (Den Leaders, Cubmaster, Committee Chair), with you acting more as a mentor and extra set of helping hands. With our Council and District piloting the Lion Cub program this fall, that's another role that would be ideal for an experienced Den Leader. Lion Cubs meet only about twice month, one outing and one Den Meeting. Less commitment than some other Den Leader positions, and it allows you to personally mentor the newest future den leader. If your Pack isn't doing Lion Scouts this fall, than as you both have pointed out, helping start the year as the next Tiger Den Leader would be ideal. The goal for both the Lion and Tiger 'Guide' would be to identify a good Den Leader, and probably hand over the reins about half way through the year and step back to let them step up.

I think this is yet another area where the BSA has missed the mark on Patrol Method. As you have pointed out, the 'work-around' is that the BSA allows multiple Troop Quartermasters, so the Patrol Quartermasters also function as Troop Quartermasters, and the problem is solved. Only the Assistant Patrol Leaders are left without a good option, and I think Stosh has showed us that there is a work-around even for that. I think the real question is why any role with a patch on the left sleeve is excluded from POR? I think the BSA intent is that the role be one that accomplishes something significant... so they limit which roles count. Instead, perhaps they should leave it up to the discretion of the unit on whether a boy has fulfilled the role in which he is serving.