wojauwe

Aardvark, There are no ranks in the OA.There are 3 honors and rather than being a rank or award they are new levels of commitment that you make to the order and to scouting.

Has anyone had any success using the Unit Representative program? I had a lot of hope for the concept when it first came out and put quite a bit of effort in trying to promote it. I don't feel like we were very succesfull. I would love to hear from anyone whose Lodge or chapter has incorporated the program succesfully.Any tips on how you made it work would be great.

Optimists Club

In our district the OA chapter is in charge of planning and organiseing our camporee program.The commitee is aproved by our District outdoor chair.We don't restrict commitee positions to OA but it turns out that the involved people are arrowmen. We use other smaller event planning earlier in the program year to help train our youth for the big event planning.Our camporee has had 850 to 1000 participants over the past few years.We use the troops to run different game stations and the recruiting of these units and putting together of program is the prime duty of the chapter. So far we have done a good job.If we were to blow it, there is no doubt that the District committee would step in and change the management. there are 26 Districts/Chapters in our Council/Lodge and the OA runs about 1/2 the camporees. just within our council there are a large variety of approachs depending on the philosophical make up of District.

Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum.I waded into one emotionally charged disscusion without awareness of what I was doing. I was strongly involved in cubscouts as youth and had a year or 2 of boyscouting before troop disintegrated. My involvement has been as an adult.3 yrs. as WEBELOS den Leader (last den had 6 of 9 members being ADD)Was den leader coach for 3 years and facilitator for pack programs.Last 2 years in pack I was also ASM in Oldest sons Troop, roundtable trainer for WEBELOS and on District training committee for WEBELOS outdoor training. Continued with ASM, Roundtable and training team for 4 years after Pack but swithced to Scoutmasters Fundamentals. Beacame Ordeal member in 1998 ,was called into DE's office late 1999(8 months after Brotherhood conversion)and asked to be chapter advisor for a very large chapter(200 members)he never gave me a good answer to my question of "why me" I spent my first year trying to sort out a total mess.At least half the records for unit elections were lost.I get job As Scoutmaster for Camporee of 650 participants with a months warning but no warning that the chapter advisor who was supposed to stay on till August was going to leave it to me in May in the middle of Camporee, had to do elections and make sure they got called out that Saturday 70 new candidates. Got things on an even keal got some youth leaders on board We became the most organised chapter in Lodge as far as elections and put together merit badge clinics for District prided our selves on never turning down a Packs request for Crossover teams. In 2001 they merged our District with neighboring one,now camporees are 850 to 1000.We elected 121 new candidates this year.Chapter runs this and I'm still Scoutmaster(District won't let me change name of position to Advisor) but I'm successfull enough that I can be invisible and things run smoothly. I've used a Venture crew as our Security/hospitality/parking for the last 3 years. We have ceremonies teams for all of the OA ceremonies at all 6 of our lodges Ordeals I work registration for 3 of our Lodges Odeals.Instructor for Lodge Leadership developement Conference and on Section Conclave Training comittee.My specialty is useing top down programing techniques to plan events.This involves breaking things down into managable bits to make it easier to recruit people to do specific tasks that they won't be overwhelmed by. Have an overachieving son who has ramrodded several inovated programs in the Lodge.Also has pushed the council until he could produce a Venture high adventure race that lasts 6 days Wtih challenging bike parts 1500 foot gain on 20 mile trip for one of the days.Backpacking ,White water rafting ,and canoe racing and more. 20 4 member teams. Younger son is very active just elected President in Crew and Administrative Vice on council cabinet),Oldest is going to be away as Junior in college to become an elemetary school teacher is still commitee chair for Lodge's chapter assistance program (which he was prime mover in developeing).both sons still active in troop where they can help.Each one is Camp staff at WEBELOS resident Camp one is at our Horse ranch camp and other is at the Ocean side Camp.(We are a very blessed Council) I'm vigil and have DAM

Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum.I waded into one emotionally charged disscusion without awareness of what I was doing. I was strongly involved in cubscouts as youth and had a year or 2 of boyscouting before troop disintegrated. My involvement has been as an adult.3 yrs. as WEBELOS den Leader (last den had 6 of 9 members being ADD)Was den leader coach for 3 years and facilitator for pack programs.Last 2 years in pack I was also ASM in Oldest sons Troop, roundtable trainer for WEBELOS and on District training committee for WEBELOS outdoor training. Continued with ASM, Roundtable and training team for 4 years after Pack but swithced to Scoutmasters Fundamentals. Beacame Ordeal member in 1998 ,was called into DE's office late 1999(8 months after Brotherhood conversion)and asked to be chapter advisor for a very large chapter(200 members)he never gave me a good answer to my question of "why me" I spent my first year trying to sort out a total mess.At least half the records for unit elections were lost.I get job As Scoutmaster for Camporee of 650 participants with a months warning but no warning that the chapter advisor who was supposed to stay on till August was going to leave it to me in May in the middle of Camporee, had to do elections and make sure they got called out that Saturday 70 new candidates. Got things on an even keal got some youth leaders on board We became the most organised chapter in Lodge as far as elections and put together merit badge clinics for District prided our selves on never turning down a Packs request for Crossover teams. In 2001 they merged our District with neighboring one,now camporees are 850 to 1000.We elected 121 new candidates this year.Chapter runs this and I'm still Scoutmaster(District won't let me change name of position to Advisor) but I'm successfull enough that I can be invisible and things run smoothly. I've used a Venture crew as our Security/hospitality/parking for the last 3 years. We have ceremonies teams for all of the OA ceremonies at all 6 of our lodges Ordeals I work registration for 3 of our Lodges Odeals.Instructor for Lodge Leadership developement Conference and on Section Conclave Training comittee.My specialty is useing top down programing techniques to plan events.This involves breaking things down into managable bits to make it easier to recruit people to do specific tasks that they won't be overwhelmed by. Have an overachieving son who has ramrodded several inovated programs in the Lodge.Also has pushed the council until he could produce a Venture high adventure race that lasts 6 days Wtih challenging bike parts 1500 foot gain on 20 mile trip for one of the days.Backpacking ,White water rafting ,and canoe racing and more. 20 4 member teams. Younger son is very active just elected President in Crew and Administrative Vice on council cabinet),Oldest is going to be away as Junior in college to become an elemetary school teacher is still commitee chair for Lodge's chapter assistance program (which he was prime mover in developeing).both sons still active in troop where they can help.Each one is Camp staff at WEBELOS resident Camp one is at our Horse ranch camp and other is at the Ocean side Camp.(We are a very blessed Council) I'm vigil and have DAM

Please tell me if I was wondering too far off thread. My point was we shouldn't need to look at senior or junior forum member status as a credential.

I'm pretty new to the Forum and probaly irritaed a few of you in a previous OA thread. Am I the only one who has problems setting up or looking at a users profile. I tried for the 5th. time a few minutes ago with no sucess. I think I may of been able to communicate better if I'd of known something of who I'm talking to. I've lurked some and have learned more on some people. But it would be nice to be able to take a peak at a profile before stepping into a controversial area. Also I'd of spent a little less time trying to qualify statements coming from me.

Ok.I'm going to stay out of the politics and philosphy I got a little carried away with that on the OA site that Eamonn spun from. But I wanted to share with you what can be done at Council level by Venture age youth.This took 3 years of the lead youth banging his head against the wall of a council that was still unsure about how to deal with Venture.This year Council let him promote at reasonable time and event filled up in less than 2 months.The Web site doesn't reflect changes in location and some program.But it's basically the same thing. Check it out http://www.joinventuring.com/ranger_quest.htm

I'm going to be leaving the forum so I can get back to my duties.It's been interesting to be a ranting maverick.I don't and won't do that in my official position.I need to follow and support the Order as it is set up.I'm not in a position to make policy and I don't think I'd want to be the person dealing with this if it actually makes it to that level. Note where I've been coming from:I'm spoiled in my contact with Venture and the OA I work with the cream of the crop and it's hard to relate to them using the OA to boost their egos.Some of them participate in OA service projects even when not OA members. FOG has pointed out the other side where we could open up a door for those who would abuse the privlages.Sadly he has very valid points. Hope I didn't drive too many people away with my long drawn out ranting.

True it is not a simple issue.The units I'm looking at are high adventure crews with a strong focus on camping.The only actual change I would like to see is changing the first class requirement to include a Venture equivilent.The OA has a strong focus on camping and should stay that way.OA would be part of path for a camping focus crew. I agree that this could be a logistical nightmare.I'd just like to see the deserving venturers have the opportunity.I beleive that throughout scouting we should emphasise more that OA is not an award but a camping focused service organization.I'm looking for people who are quality members who love camping and and would supply some mature leadership in the Chapter and Lodge.The rosters are becoming inflated with younger and younger new members who are not active. I'd actually like to see candidate requirements stiffened to include some leadership history.This is unpopular at the top since quality lodge requirements have a strong focus on numbers. FOG thank you for your reply,this is the kind of feedback I see as relevent to what I've been talking about.Your concerns are very valid.

well we definitely are going to always dissagree.I see Venture as an extension of the boy scout program deserving to be included in the OA's Honor society . It seems to me you see it as something seperate and want to keep it so. I'm probably in the minority,but it's how I feel. Too tell you the truth I feel like we have been involved in 2 completely different disscussions.The answers you gave to me seemed to be totally irelevent to what I was talking about,and obviously you saw my side the same way. Oh by the way I didn't feel I was insulting you by reciting sons honors.the apology was to him because he doesn't flaunt these things.I was just giving the credentials of one of the people I've had long conversations about what the Venture and OA youth leaders are talking about in our council. Sorry I'm apparently not a very clear communicator.

FOG, I think I should apologise for the terminology stuff.You are right about the Venturer usage.I guess I'm just frustrated that this is the kind of thing that has become the bulk of feed back.there has been very little if any disscussion of what I thought was the meat of the subject.

FOG, My point was more that I may get my terminology wrong.But I'm in the middle of what is actually going on I live with youth who are working on the leading edge of a vibrant growing program.I also spend the bulk of my time supporting and working within the boundaries of the program that has my heart .The OA. I would like to see the 2 share in each others strengths. The odds are I will miss the details on patches or terminology. My focus lies in helping to support the youth leadership in my Chapter and Lodge, and I think I'm doing a pretty good job.Our chapter has put on merit badge workshops for the District,plans and runs a District Camporee serving 800 to a 1000 scouts and scouters.We provide the bulk of our lodge's ceremonies teams from Pre ordeal to Vigil.Our teams performed 50 WEBELOS crossover Ceremonies this year. During that time we also ran Unit elections for around 50 units.We also are well represented on the Staffs of all Lodge events and Section Conclave.My greatest sin is that I submitted a District nomination for a Woman who has been working in our kitchen for OA ordeals for more years than I have been in scouting,and I got district and Lodge aproval for this. I need to apologise to my son for flaunting his awards(he would not aprove)I just wanted to point out that I'm involved with people who are deeply involved in the programs I am talking about.Sorry if I was insulting to you.These forums are probably not something that I'm good for.I stumbled on this looking for new training information for my chapter leaders planning retreat and JLT. I saw crewgirl's entry and could relate to the problem.I forgot to check the timeline before I chimed in.It apears she's long gone. I'm sorry if I've spoiled your fun.

Eamonn, In response to your message about scout pay.Our council has some of the lowest pay you'll find anywhere.Most of our budget goes to maintaining some of the most amazing scout properties you'll ever see. Cascade Pacific Council is blessed with some great camps,every thing from cliffs at the Edge of the Pacific Ocean to 5000 feet up in the Cascade mountains on the Edge of the Jefferson Wilderness area. My oldest son has been approached from out of region and offered 3 times what he gets.But like I said our staffers work for the love of it.

Sorry I mistated something.The last I heard Venture is the fastest growing program in the BSA.You'd never know it the way they are treated by the rest of scouting.

FOG, you have a great knack for focusing on the nitpicky trivia I hear Venture Scout as often as I hear Venturer used.My sons are both involved in the Venture program ,OA and Boy scouts .My oldest was awarded the Venture leadership award(the Venturing equivelent of the Silver Beaver,but Youth can receive it).He also has the Founders Award, the OA's highest council award.His Venture crew is on the Wood Badge training staff for the council. My youngest is the Council cabinet's Administrative Vice President. Could you tell me what knowledge you have of The Venture program other than static history and vaque concept of terminology? I think this will be my last entry responding to comments on terminology or the proper way to wear a patch.To me these items are way down on the list of importance.In many areas the Scouting program is struggleing to grow or even maintain membership. It seems ludicrous for us to isolate a program that is beggining to draw older youth back into scouting.The principles promoted by the Venture program are the same as scouting.If you have a philosphical problem with that fine but I could care less what you call it.In our council the Venture program is the only one that is experiancing healthy growth.

Eamonn I don't think you get it.The point is that Venture scouts(and yes they are called scouts)as with other boy scouts are serving the scout program.I'm not trying to set up all Venture scouts as something special there is just as big a mix of slackers and hard workers as in any other part of scouting (or the world in general). I dissagree with you about not setting camp staff up as something special.Yea there are slackers as there are every where.But the people I was trying to point out are ones who go above and beyond their duties for scouting. I don't know how involved you have been in staffing but both of my sons have been camp staff for several years and the work that they do is far above what a camper sees.Yes you see the nice enthusiastic guy.But you don't see the late night staff meetings or the work that goes into making everything look so easy. There is staff week and several other optional service days throughout the year fixing broken facilities,clearing trails and setting up the tents and program areas.

Eamonn I don't think you get it.The point is that Venture scouts(and yes they are called scouts)as with other boy scouts are serving the scout program.I'm not trying to set up all Venture scouts as something special there is just as big a mix of slackers and hard workers as in any other part of scouting (or the world in general). I dissagree with you about not setting camp staff up as something special.Yea there are slackers as there are every where.But the people I was trying to point out are ones who go above and beyond their duties for scouting. I don't know how involved you have been in staffing but both of my sons have been camp staff for several years and the work that they do is far above what a camper sees.Yes you see the nice enthusiastic guy.But you don't see the late night staff meetings or the work that goes into making everything look so easy. There is staff week and several other optional service days throughout the year fixing broken facilities,clearing trails and setting up the tents and program areas.

I'm new to this medium for communicating.This may not work for communicating anything complex. But I think there are some missunderstandings going on. One concept I want clear OA is not an award it is a service organization and if I were to use the district "backdoor" to get an adult in it's not to honor them but to bring a valuable asset into the organization.My district units elected 125 new candidates this year following all the exact regulations.70% of these will make it to one of our lodge's 6 ordeals.Maybe 10 of them will be active in the Chapter or Lodge.Of the 4 people in my 5 years as chapter advisor who are my District selections 1 has not stepped up in the OA but that's because of District and Council commitments.Sorry 2,health concerns took one out of the mix. As to the ease of selection at the troop level,that's a troop thing.National took away the youth number restrictions several years ago.You are going to find different philosophies from troop to troop.The youth in my troop take it very seriously we tend to elect 1 a year. Out of a 40 member troop we have 9 OA members 1 new ordeal member 4 brotherhood 4 vigil of which 2 are recipiants of the Founders award. What is Venture? It is a BSA organization for youth 14 thru 20,it is coed,as with explorers they often have specific focuses.The majority of Venture units are faith focused,being essentially one of the age group breakdowns for the LDS System(they are not coed in the LDS). The program is still trying to define itself.There are more and more high adventure focused crews who are catching some of the older youth who would otherwise leave the scouting program for their troops lack of ability to serve their needs.It's very possible that in your area there is not a very well developed Venture program. My oldest son ( an Eagle scout,Lodge officer,Vigil with Founders award etc.) is the Youth Venture chair for a council wide week long high adventure race in the Oregon High Desert .He's been planning this for 3 years most of the problems coming with the fact that council didn't understand Venture program and were afraid to allow him to promote it.This year they let it go and in less than a month all 20 slots for teams of 4 were filled with a long waiting list including people as far away as Virginia. Venture emphasizes Youth run with adult advisors(sound familiar?) WHAT DOES BEING CAMP STAFF HAVE TO DO WITH OA?!SERVICE!! Check out the considerations for Vigil selection one of those is service to scout camps.The Venture scouts I know on Camp staff are the most commited people I know, they go to every camp work day they can get to(not required for their job) If you want to bring up that they get paid for staffing,think about a 16 to 20 year old getting paid $60 to $100 a week to work 16 to 18 hour days.It's not the money.These people love the camps and are dedicated to giving our boys a quality scouting experiance. Don't worry there's not a chance that National will include Venture in the OA mix.The organization is very conservative at the top and the youth protection logistics of the coed aspect scare the heck out of them.(understandably) Yours in Brotherhood, Quilwelensitchewagan Wajauwe

The ones that I use the district option for are all very active at the District level.One a year is not such a big deal in a chapter of 300 in a Lodge of 2000. The desire to see the inclusion of Venture stems from the fact that this is a valid Boyscout program serving the same age group as the OA and with very much the same structure. If your concerned about OA being opened up too much for it to feel special.You might want to look at the tendancy of Boy Scout troops to select every Youth who reaches first class. These Venture scouts that we are excluding are a large part of our boy scout camp staff.So they are doing the work of the OA. What's the big deal about including them officialy?

I feel the need to clarify something.Acco40's response took a couple of lines out of context from the entry he was responding to.Thus the impression is that many of us are not happy with the fact that the youth have control of youth elections.Not so at all. My frustraton had more to do with tweener youth (18 to 20) who may have entered scouts as Venture scouts,they can go to a troop where they are considered adults, become ASM's yet they are not able to be selected into the OA as adults,because in the eye of the OA,they are youth until 21.This means they must of earned First class which is not the name of any rank in Venture but if they come to a troop at 18 they are considered an adult by troop and unable to earn rank. The overall scouting program needs to find a way to embrace the Venture program. There are more and more crews who are high adventure crews who fulfill the camping requirements and their ranks are more challenging than First Class. I'm encountering Venturers who have come to scouting in their mid teens without taking the boy scout path.Some of them have negative feelings towards the OA because they are excluded unfairly from the program.I hate to see this growing program be cut off from the rest of us.The Venture program when done right is very close to the OA they both are strongly youth run and stay youth till 21. As a chapter advisor I feel that I'm being cheated out of good youth leaders for our program. I feel strongly that we need to embrace the program.

Actually scoutmaster can not veto election results. Scoutmaster aproval is one of the requirements for a person to be on the ballot.So I guess we do have some input but it's best that we not be to free with this veto.Mostly it's used if the SM feels that the possible candidate is too immature to handle the ordeal.It's rarely used,I saw 12 year olds on my candidate list and I doubt I will see any of them at a chapter or lodge event or meeting. (different rant) The point I was trying to make was in relation to the difficulty the female Venture youth would have getting into the OA.There is some flexability with adult selection ie.we can waive the first class requirement but I can't use this with youth.I'm approaching this from the point of view of an advisor and I as an advisor Have no power in youth elections outside of the youth not being first class or have a current scout registration or have the 15 days camping requirements.

AS a very active chapter Advisor and the father of a youth member of the lodge leadership,I'm invited to Eagle COH's through out the Council.I carry my sash with me and wear it if this is what this unit does.My feeling is that if the unit wants to display their OA participation , I will respect it. It may not be the official uniform code.But this is a special event and I refuse to be nitpicky about such an irrelevent thing. The spirit of the OA is in the heart not the symbols.

There are many people who have duel registrations.I'm an OA chapter Advisor and deal with unique election and selection situations.With adults There are more options we can use.The real impediment to Venture Female youths is that to be elected you need to have achieved first Class.It doesn't allow for the fact that Venturing ranks require First Class skills and above.It's more a matter of wording. Once the potential candidate reaches 21,then we have more leeway.The focus is more on whether the person will be an asset to the order.Adults are selcted by either a troop or Varsity team.They can only be selected if a youth in their unit is elected. There is the option of selecting them as a district selection.I use this at least once each year and it is pretty much up to me.I need to convince at least one of the District key 3 that the person is a good choice. As to Venture Female over 18 becoming an ASM in a troop,there is a new problem. In the troop 18 is considered adult.In the OA you are a youth until 21,same as Venture.This creates a quandry ,the 18 to 20 year old needs to be elected as a youth and is subject to the First class requirement.All youth elections are done by youth and us Adults can not override them or wave any of the requirements. There are many of us who are frustrated by this.The national leadership tends to lean towards the conservative side.I'm not sure the policy makers know how to relate to Ventureing. My oldest son is very active at council level in both Venturing and OA and the disscussion about bringing Venture program into the fold is ongoing.It may be a slow process but if we keep talking about it maybe we can drag the Scouting Executives into the 21st. century and grant Venturing full membership in the scouting community. Yours in Service, Regi