Wilton125

Examples of "poor quality" of BSA Centennial Uniform. Click on links: http://kevindevin.com/?p=2778 http://meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3381

"If someone can make a product on the other side of the planet and bring it to my doorstep with better or equal quality as a local manufacturer for a lower price, why should I support inefficiency?" The fundamental points of this thread has been: - The Asian-made "Centennial Uniforms" have been proven to be of inferior quality - BSA Supply sells these Asian-made uniforms as a price that is higher than the prior USA made uniforms This is not efficiency; this is exploitation of a captive market. Why should this be accepted as OK?

Great comparison on commercial alternatives to BSA Scout Pants http://inquiry.net/uniforms/bdu.htm Although this information is a bit dated, the information clear illustrates "why" may Parents and Scouter chose an alternative to the BSA Scout pants.

Last year at summer camp, I met a Scout who had spent time in Australia in Scouts before returning to the US. He was wearing an Australian Scout uniform shirt that was definitely eye catching as well as comfortable. Here is an example of how the Scout uniform has evolved in Australia: http://www.scoutsqld.com.au/index.cfm?MenuID=210 It is definitely a much more youth-friendly approach to uniforms.

There are lot's of threads about the BSA uniform. The current centennial uniform was redesigned for the 100th anniversary of Scouting in the United States. It is definitely an evolution from the Oscar de la Renta (ODL) uniform introduced in the early 1980s. But is it the right uniform for Scouting as we begin our second century as a movement in the US? The Scout uniforms in both the UK http://shop.scouts.org.uk/c-193-uniforms.aspx and Scouts Canada http://www.scouts.ca/uniform/uniform.html have also evolved. These uniform seem to me more youth friendly and less traditional in design. Yet these uniforms are clearly Scout uniforms. Perhaps the recognition factor is improved because both Scouts UK and Scouts Canada have retained the neckerchief. So why are the new BSA Centennial uniforms so conservative in its styling? Were the new Centennial uniforms designed with input of our Scouts or by a group of middle-aged, paid "professionals" in Texas? If YOU could change and/or improve the current Centennial Uniform, what would YOU suggest? Just imagine if BSA National asked this question of our Scouts and leaders! I welcome your thoughts and comments.

To johnponz: I think that you are missing the point of this thread. Based on the responses to this thread, there are a number of people unhappy with BSA National supply about the following Centennial uniform issues: 1. Poor quality 2. High prices 3. Sourcing from Asia 4. Poor fit 5. Poor durability ... Due to these concerns, Scouter have shared their opinions and their alternatives to these uniform concerns. The "solution" is NOT to just wear the current Centennial Uniform. The "solution" is for BSA National supply to listen to its members and FIX these problems.

To Chaoman45 What is a "bombazine raincoats"?(This message has been edited by Wilton125)

"The location where something is made does not really indicate quality. Quality usually comes from the specs that the customer (in this case BSA) is providing." Then shame on BSA National Supply for "specifying" low-quality uniforms and selling them at high prices. The pre-2009 BSA uniforms were certainly better quality then the current Centennial Uniforms.

"Call me a "nativist" but I'd pay an extra ten bucks for a US-made uniform." I would too!

"b) Imitation of United States Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Air Force uniforms is prohibited, in accordance with the provisions of Act of Congress, approved June 3, 1916." Does BSA follow the these rules? Here are some examples where they do not: 1. The current Centennial Uniform and ODL (Oscar de Larenta) uniform are very similar to the US Marine Corps Uniform with tan, two-pocket, dress shirts and dark green pants. 2. However the Marine Corps tan uniform shirt never had epaulets. But the US Army tan / khaki shirts dress shirts of the 1940s-1970s used to have epaulets. In the 1950s and 1960s dark green tabs were work on the epaulets to indicate "combat leadership". Sound familiar? 3. The flat, folding BSA hat of the late 1940s, 1950, 1960s and early 1970s was based on the "overseas hat" worn by the US military. As a matter of fact BSA has much more military-based based uniforms than the Scouts in Canada, the United Kingdom or Australia. Oh and by the way, all of the uniforms for the US Military are made by US manufactures. I think that these manufacturers would be happy to get the additional business. As of 2011, there was 3,630,779 (2 588 326 youth and 1 042 453 adults). That's a lot of potential business!

"National is getting cheap quality materials and poor workmanship at unbelievably low prices from Asia and yet they continue to raise uniform prices." If BSA Nation Supply was selling the current uniform pants and shirt at $25 to $30 in order to allow families all income levels to afford Scout uniforms, then I could understand and appreciate this approach. But BSA Nation Supply sells the current uniform pants and shirt at approximately DOUBLE the market price. Poor quality at high prices! "Where is all that profit going?? Into National's coffers to pay for all those ridiculously high salaries and expense accounts from Mazzucca right down to the local councils SE's." Do you think the CSE and other BSA National Scout executives wear or pay for the current, standard BSA uniform? No they do not. They wear "custom-made" Scout uniforms. Where does the money come from to pay for these custom-made uniforms? Part of it come from the profit from BSA National Supply of selling youth and adults poor quality uniforms and other items at high prices. What a sad commentary on the current state of BSA National Leadership. They should be ashamed!(This message has been edited by Wilton125)

"Believe it or not, and it is well documented, a Scouter had his membership revoked by a SE in Alabama for refusing to change his military style pants at a camporee." I bet that these were camouflage-style military-style pants as opposed to solid green military pants.

The US Military moved away from OD (olive drab) BDUs (Battle Dress Uniforms) in 1979. Almost all OD BDUs sold in stores are similar to, but NOT exact copies of the US Military OD BDU pants from the 1960s and 1970s. I own and use three pairs of OD BDU Pants when for campouts in the field. Retail costs were between $26 and $30. There are extremely well made and have lasted for over 6 years. I have had Scouts and Adult Leaders in my Troop wear these types of pants to Troop Meetings, Courts of Honor (CoH) and other uniformed events. Most people cannot tell the difference. These dark green pants look better than khakis or jeans with the Scout shirt.

It has been over a years since my conversation with BSA National Supply about the decision to "offshore" Scout uniforms to Asia. I do not remember the name of the person that I spoke with. What I do remember was that it took many calls to get to someone that was involved with the decision. I never found out who made the final decision.My guess was the Chief Scout Executive cerainly had to approve it. The person that I spoke with at National Supply claimed that there were no uniform manufactures in the USA that could support BSA's uniform needs. When I asked about the US uniform manufacturers for the US Military, the US Post Office and the Girl Scouts USA, he had no response about using these vendors. As a long-time Scouter, this issue really continues to concern me about the BSA on multiple levels. The pre-2008 uniforms has "Made in the USA" labels and were a quality product. The cost for pants and shirts were about $40; a fair price for a good quality item. When uniform manufacturing moved to Asia, - Quality went down - Prices remained the same or went up - BSA abandoned long-time USA manufacturing partners The consumer, Scouts and Leaders, appear to viewed as a "captive audience" that will accept what ever BSA sells as "official". This attitude certainly does not reflect the principles and ideals of Scouting. I have a good supply US-made Scout uniforms from pre-2008. I continue to avoid the new BSA uniforms because I strongly disagree with the BSA Supply decision to off-shore our Uniforms. This decision is BAD for our nation's economy and it sends a POOR message to Scouts and uniformed leaders. Contrast the BSA uniform sourcing with that of Scouts Canada. Scouts Canada sources it's uniform from a Canadian-based manufacturer. Why is this viable for Scouts Canada but not for the BSA? Someday, I hope to get an honest answer from the BSA. (This message has been edited by Wilton125)

I am amazed that the topic of customized unit numbers has provoked this level of discussion. Over the years, the Council Shoulder Patch (CSP) has evolved from a simple red and white patch to unique, multi-color patches. Many councils produce special and limited availability CSPs for special events and for recognition like National Jamborees, Eagle Scouts, and Friend of Scouting. So in one council, there can be many variations of the CSP. BSA "National" does not seem to have a problem with this. CSP designs vary from one Council to another. The common denominator is the shape and placement of the CSP. At the National Jamboree, many units from "square-shaped" states (e.g. CT, PA, CO, etc.) have unit patches made in the shape of their state. This is a common for Jamboree Contingents from the multiple councils in my state, Connecticut. I am unaware of any problems with this practice by BSA. The common denominator is the color and placement of the unit number. When the 2010 Centennial Uniform shifted the unit numbers patch colors from white on red to green on khaki, this triggered the design of of new patch. My Troop, Troop 125 in Wilton, CT, had used a white numbers on a red field shaped like the state of CT since 2001. Out new design, green numbers on a khaki field in a rectangular shape were designed to follow the 2010 Uniform design. We added "Wilton, Conn" to the design (white letters on a red field) to reflect the TRADITION of 1960s/70s Community Strips. We follow the BSA uniform guideline for the shape and placement of this patch. We are fortunate that there are cost effective options to design and produce this type of custom unit number. Over the past 6 months, we have received many compliments from both professional Scouters and long-term Scout volunteers on our unit patch. Many have complimented the subtle integration of the community strip into the design. In addition, it adds a level of "unit pride" to our Scouts and Leaders. I remain puzzled why some folks have such a strong negative opinion on this small patch of cloth.