Bobanon

LisaBob getting along, even with in disagreement is the adult thing to do. Sadly that is beyond some folks.

Ahhhh the fallacy of removing God...... One would think a Major General would know more of American History than what he appears to know. That is a real shame, unless of course he was spouting that nonsense to work the crowd up. It was not the intent of the Founding Fathers to set the United States as a religious, (Christian), nation. Many of the Founding Fathers were Deist. Namely Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington. And so too was the Father of the American Revolution, Thomas Paine. There were many other Deist during the time. Thomas Jefferson envisioned the "U.S. to be a Unitarian nation" within two generations", and said so in a letter to John Adams. Under God was not even in the original Pledge, buit was added in the 1950's as a way to combat "them gawdless commumist". Most people don't even know that Ralph Belamy the writer of the Pledge was a Socialist and a defrocked Baptist minister. He was defrocked because of his socialism. For anyone to make claims that the U.S. is a religious nation of any bent is false, and a lie. It was founded on the ideals of secularism and the natural rights of man.

I know exactly to what you are referencing and think nothing of it. I go to a number of religious discussion forums and they are much nastier than anything I have seen here. And lets face it, there are those whom you can disagree where there is still mutual respect, and there are those that you cannot. The latter I have found in my experience to be less knowledgable and hence more defensive in childish ways. Consider the source on those kind of forum denizens. I do.

Seems some are a little challenged ethically. Anyone, and I mean anyone who recieves an honor from the BSA should be above and beyond approach. It is through debate that ideas are born. If we think as we always have we'll end up slowly dying off in the most pitiful fashion. We all need to challenge ourselves mentally and think outside the box. Now some of you might be surprised to know that I consider myself a staunch conservative. A Goldwater Republican, and most certainly NOT one of these dispicable neoconservatives, (who are in no uncertain terms conservative even with the loosest definition!). I am not however frightened by homosexuals in any way, and do not believe in discrimination of anyone for any reason. As a general rule pedophiles are not homosexuals but are heterosexuals that are known to their victims. This current hysteria about gays to a large measure indicates latent homosexual tendencies on the parts of those decrying the loudest. Hmmmm what have they got to hide???

NldScout.....Rumsfeld has DONE NOTHING WRONG????? I guess if you look beyond the lies and deceit he's doing a great job. Of course if you look at it from a purely ethical point of view the man is about as nefarious a character in politics today. Put Rumsfeld with Chaney and Rice and you have the three worst people in Washington ever. These three make Nixon and LBJ look like Sunday school teachers.

NJCubScouter my error. Yes I meant change with the times OR die out. My bad. Evnori, I know many who claim to be followers of the Christian religion and are anything but morally straight. Being the member of a Christian denomination no more makes one moral, or morally straight than bald is a hair color. Ghandi was once asked that even though he was educated in England why he wasn't a Christian, to which Ghandi replied, "show me a Christian and I will become one."

Perhaps it is time for the BSA to move into the 21st Century. Either that over die out over the next 20 to 30 years. Allowing gays isn't going to throw the door open to rampant homosexuality. Pedophiles are not generally homosexual, and are generally know to their victims. Look at the catholic church for instance. Also too is the current religious intolerance. The realm of religion is the responsibility of the parents not the BSA and there should not be a religious obligation as a clause to membership. Many of the Founding Fathers were not christians, and this country was not begun as a christian nation no matter what those in the religious reich claim. The Treaty Of Tripoli states this emphatically. Like I said the BSA needs to catch up with the times and die out. I hate to see it die for it has the potential of becoming a great youth organization again. It just needs to jettison the poisoning it has suffered since the early 80's of the mormon church's influence.

Isn't that a shame. Who's next Charles Manson? What was the BSA thinking in giving Rumsfeld the Silver Buffalo. I though it bad when Bill Clinton was given his, but this is much much worse. Rumsfeld is one of the principles that lied us into a war of which he should be held fully accountable. And hopefully after next November he, and the other criminals will be.

Oliver North's past is very important to the story. The BSA doesn't need a person with the sordid background North has speaking up for th organization. North represents everything contrary to the ideals of the BSA. Norht is a liar, and the mouth piece of the nuts cases of the religious right, or rather the religious reich. Of course he fits hand in glove with the current BSA leadership, which doesn't say much. But, for the rank and file Troop, Crew and Pack he should be anathema.

Is is just me, or are there others out there that find the prices of items one can purchase though the BSA supply division, or at your local Scout Service Center to be exceedingly high. I purchased a new Scout shirt several years ago and within weeks of receiving it had to sew most of the buttons back on. Is this shoddy workmanship something the BSA wants purchasers to see? You can purchase camping gear from many different sources that are the same items in the Scout Catalog but are cheaper in price. Sometimes the difference is surprising. I have also had complaints from parents for years about the high cost of uniforms. Granted, I have kids now, and have had kids in Packs or Troops that didn't have money, and we recylced uniform shirts. Half of the kids I've worked come from poor homes. I have never required the kids to have a full uniform, only a Scout shirt. I hate to sound crabby but this is something that really irks me.

Prairie_Scouter, I was afraid I was going to come off as a homophobe, I'm not. From my perspective the gay lifestyle would or is hell. I suppose that a gay person wouldn't consider him or herself living a hellish lifestyle. My bad. I have several gay friends, and wouldn't ever think of telling them I thought their lifestyle was hell. I don't think it bad from a moral or ethical stand point, not my thing, but whatever floats someone's boat is their business. And yes too, discrimination of any sort is bad. Besides, it wouldn't take much to convince me that gays wouldn't be a problem with the organization. The psychological fact is gay people are not child molesters. Child molestation comes from the heterosexual community, not the gay community. And as a general rule molesters are known to their victims. I was speaking more of the BSA having to fighting one fight at a time. At some point in the future the BSA will have to address the homosexual issue. National has bought some time with recent law suit victories, but how long will those last? Funscout, Nice post and thank you. I know there are good Christians out there, and many of them are like yourself who seem to be practicing Jesus admonition to love everyone. Good too that you have a Parson that you love. That makes a lot of difference. And I am extremely impressed he is black in a more or less white parish. Good for the lot of you. The only difference between the races is our own narrow minded preconceived notions. People are alike no matter the color of their skin, and only the simple minded think otherwise. I myself am a Unitarian Universalist, although I was raised Presbyterian. There is a very dynamic group of people at the UU I attend. There are Christians, several Buddhist and Taoist, and seekers such as myself. I find Taoism to be pretty fascinating. The best analogy I can come up with is the Tao is somewhat like the force from Star Wars, but more complicated and not something one can call upon or conjure up. Taoism was morphed into a religious philosophy by some, but that wasnt Lao Tzus intent when he wrote the Tao Te Ching. I have too many unanswerable questions for Christianity, and I wont take anything on faith, and this applies to other religious philosophies too. Funscout, you and I have a commonality in , (you being a Methodist, and I being a former Presbyterian), that Pat Robertson wouldnt consider either of us Christian, (assuming I still made that claim). Old Pat said Presbyterians, Methodist and Episcopalians are the spirit of the anti-Christ. To Old Pat I say what hogwash! It is the more liberal of the Christian denominations that give credit to the religion. I see the three vilified by Pat Robertson as the ones living Jesus dictum of loving one another. And, loving God and loving one another was what Jesus said were the most important commandment of the Judeo-Christian God when asked. GS-CS_leader. You posted; But for many religions, it is not simply that they use a different name for "God", but rather their concepts of one, many, or no dieties, are just completely different from Christianity. (Note that believing in a religion that doesn't really have any kind of diety like the Christian God is not the same as being an atheist.) On the other hand, I also know individuals with these different beliefs for whom if you look at all their *actions* you would find that they are models of all the scouting ideals in all other ways. Great post!!! And right on the money. This is exactly what Im getting at. There are too many people where I live, and where I work with Scouting that equate religion wholly with Christianity, although they would non slight approval to someone Jewish. This is s small world view indeed, and something I deal with on a day to day basis. Being a Christian, or whatever doesnt automatically give a person the high ground, even though there are those who think it does. Actions speak louder than words and I agree with your; I also know individuals with these different beliefs for whom if you look at all their *actions* you would find that they are models of all the scouting ideals in all other ways. Being or believing this or that doesnt make you a good person, it is the good works you do. The national organization has a pretty strong horizontal view on many things, religion being one. Change from the inside out is best, and perhaps in our own small way we are doing that now even if only one or two people are changed by the discourse in this forum discussion.

Yes, quite the nut to crack eh? And yes there is as much difference between an agnosticism and atheism as there is between Christianity and atheism. Fishsqueezer I didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. However, it has been my experience that many, (based on those I know personally and ones I've seen on internet discussion forums), are clueless when it comes to the history of their religion, and parts of the bible. My intent was not to step on any toes, I was just pointing out what I see where I live. With that said I would like to add, that when I see ones like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etal spewing their vile and hate I am completely disgusted with all of conservative christianity. People can believe what they wish, but I don't have to buy off on it, nor do I have to have any respect for it. Kudu I checked the site for Scouting For All. Interesting to say the least. The gay issue, the other tough nut to crack.....(no pun intended). Things have gotten sooooo complicated, and no easy answers. I wouldn't want to see the BSA back down from it's stand on gays, especially in leadership roles. I feel sorry for gays, both men and women, because that lifestyle has got to be hell. And it isn't like it's a lifestyle choice but DNA at work. Nobody would choose that sort of life to my thinking.

Right you are about entertainment types. Especially Madonna and Tom Cruise. Madonna ........... volumnes on her classlessness. Tom Cruise and Scientology, now that is funny. Scientology; a religious philosophy made up by a b-grade science fiction writer. Cruise and others are shelling out big bucks to Scientology which is nothing more than a scam. Funny "ain't it! Scientology is proof positive of P.T. Barnum's "there's a sucker born every minute". Anyone that gives entertainment people any credibility for being anything other than shallow are themselves even more shallow than the enterainer(s). Oh, for the days when prostitution was a higher thought of professeion than the theater. I for the life of me cannot understand the infatuation with the rich and famous. This does not say much for our society. On the subject of religion. Religion should be a personal experience, and not one to wear on one's sleeve. That at best is hypocritical, and at worst leads to a society like those in the mid east. And let's face facts, there is a portion of our own society that would like to turn the U.S. into a xtian based theocracy. Freedom of religion means freedom of and from religion. It is all up to the individual to decide. Certainly not the state's right to decide or force.

Sorry Old Eagle, my mistake. I in no uncertain terms meant for my post to sound like the Democratic Party has the moral high ground. Even in the loosest definition of the term do the Democrats hold teh high ground on any issue. In my opinion the Democrats and Republicans are equally sorry. I voted for Bush in 2000. After 8 years of Caligula of the Ozards I thought it a no brainer. I thought it a no brainer in 96 with the choice of a decorated Vet and a draft dodger when I voted for Bob Dole. I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative, and my definition of what a conservative should be like means being like Barry Goldwater. I became totally disguste with the GOP after 2000. I was all for going into Afghanistan after Al Queda, but was totall against going into Iraq when it was first even suggested. Iraq had been marginalized completely during and after Gulf War 1. Hussein should have been taken out there is not doubt. But, he could have been taken out by a patient hit team. Bush is no more a conservative than is Bill CLinton or John Kerry. I voted Libertarian in 2004, and will do so at the mid term elections, and in 2008. If I were in a position to call the shots I would want the U.S. to stop being the world's policeman and to mind our own business. We have done much good in the past 100 years overseas. However, we are now one of the most hated, if not the most hated country. We have problems here at home that require more attention than they've been given. Let's take care of our own for a while, and if the rest of the world, especially the middle east want to go at it like drunk monkey's, well, let them. We need their oil, and they need our food and other consumer products. Let the market dictate trade, not government. "They government that governs least, governs best" - Thomas Jefferson.

Xtain is an abbreviation of Christian, and comes from the Greek. X" resembles the Greek letter Χ (Chi), the first letter of "Christ" in Greek. The original bible was translated from Aramaic into Greek. Presbyterian and Episcopalian seminaries require Greek as a language course for seminarians inorder that they may go back to the original writings of the bible instead of subsiquent translations. It is not derogartory, and comes for Christian history. X for Christos.

Hello Eager Leader, Thanks for the insight on the forum. I figure there are many like us out there who have the same ethical dilima as you and I. I also assumed there would be a portion of the members of this forum that will take the tact that I need to move on to some other endeavor. I understant their mindset fully, as I have lived my entire life in the bible belt. It has been my experience that those who scream loudest against non-xtians, and even liberal xtians, do not understand and know the history of their relgion, nor have they ever read the bible in entirity. I myself have read the bible through on two occasions and on both times came away with only uestions. Perhaps there needs to be a concerted effort from within the organization to change. The BSA will eventually have to move into the 21st Century and allow the 1950's mindset that is so pervasive now to die. I know so many who look back on the 1950's as the halcyon days of American society, yet the 1950's were anything but ideal, and to think differently is nothing more than dillusion. I think it would be better for the BSA to make changes on it's own than to await court ordered changes. And court ordered change will come. The movement towards a more secular BSA will be easier and better if we do it ourselves, and if we are forced to kicking and screaming. Looking at the current Presidential administration's and Congress'es many transgressions on the Constitution and out right dirty dealings I forsee a shift come next November in both Houses of Congress. The shift will be in retaliation for lies, deceipt, and excesses. The GOP had a golden opportunity to do right, but have taken the low road at every opportunity. When the Democrats regain control of Congress the BSA will be required to go on the defensive even more than now. This is a cold hard fact of life. We will be better off changing of our own volition than being forced.

Hi y'all I have been involved with Scouts since I was 8, and will be 49 come my next birthday. So, I've been around a long time. I love Scouts. It is the greatest program available to youth, and can be more fulfilling for adults than any other avenue I have seen. There is as much diffence between atheism and agnosticism as their is betwee xtianity and atheism. I do not believe in a personal or caring god, nor do I believe that anyone has been given a special book or tablet by a god. My dilema has manifest itself of late in the furor over BSA policy and society, especially in California. I have questioned whether or not I was being hypocritical in my role as a leader in regards to my own personal beliefs on the topic of faith and religion. I have never spoken of my own beliefs to another adult scouter or the youth. I have steered clear of the topic of religion wholly. I think the boys religious ideas should come from their own parents and their traditions. It is not my place to instill religious ideaology to anyone. I believe that we have to come to our own conclusions on matters spiritual through study, thought and meditation. I have no problems with prayer before a meal. I think the Philmont Grace is a wonderful prayer. There is not a religious tradition that could find the Philmont Grace offensive. I have found, at times, a various and sundry Scouting events that individuals like to inpart some or many of their own personal beliefs and traditions into opening prayers or even opening statements. I remind myself that they apparently have either skipped over Matthew 5, or they didn't get it. I would imagine I am not alone in my dilima over agnosticism and involvment in Scouts. I believe there are many like myself who remain quiet in order to keep the peace.

The idea there was/is war on xmas is laughable at best. Why is it that a certain segment of the xtian population feel there is. Of course Faux News is responsible for such nonsense. All television news uses sensationalizes stories, mostly nonsense or of no importance, (Natalie Halloway or the Peterson's for example). And Faux News is the absolute worst. If there really was a concerted war on xmas every retail business organization in America would be screaming bloody murder. These senstational stories like the war on xmas are nothing more than smoke and mirrors to keep the public scrambling and their attention averted from the real stories that should have been reported. Again Faux News is the master in spending hours worrying about the disappearance of Natalie Holloway, or some other unimportant crisis. I find it funny that xtains are so offended by the phrase Happy Holiday. Besides, Jesus, if he really existed was born in the early spring, and not on Dec. 25. The early church used the idea of Jesus's birth on Dec. 25 to usurp a pagan holiday that was still celebrated in Rome. And the same is true for the Easter Holiday. Easter usurped the old Estara holiday that was practiced in Northern Europe by the Germanic and Celtic civilizations. And too, many of the early saints were old pagan gods that were incorporated into the new religion in order to make it more palatable, and more readily adopted. I have found that very few xtians know the history of their own religion. The war on xmas is utter nonsense. My question is why do conservative xtians feel this need to be persecuted?

Bible stories have been in Boys Life for as long as I have had access to Boy's Life, and that is since the mid 1960's. Should they be there? Personally I think not, unless there are stories from the Koran, BagadVita, and the other books that make claims of divine origin. When I thumb through a Boy's Life, I pass by the bible page like I do an advertisement for something I have absolutely no use for. Does it bother me, not really, but I can see how someone could be offended. Do Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, boys, or boys of non-xtian religions feel maligned? Who knows, but we should care. The BSA program is absolutely the best youth organization around. There is not even a close second that teaches lifeskills that boys can carry into adulthood. Personally I would like to see the BSA completely drop religion and become wholly secular. Religious belief should be a private matter. I see the "great commission" as one of the great injustices unleashed upon humankind. The stories of the bible have no more merit today than do tales from Roman or Greek mythology. This is the 21st Century and we should not be mired with ideaology from the bronze age. The Great Enlightenment should have taken care of this problem but didn't. And today we are witness to the rise of the religious right. History will see the current Bush administration as their high water mark, and we will see the beginings of their demise come the Nov. 06 election cycle. This rise of the conservative xtians is nothing more than a revitilization movement. As I stated above, the BSA would be better off being wholly secular. The purpose of the BSA is to prepare boys for adulthood. It should not be in the god business. Carl Sagan once wrote, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

I know the BSA does not allow athiest, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters. I am wonder this because I am a long time Scouter and an Agnostic. I feel some internal ethical turmoil over this question of religion in the overall BSA program. Personally I'd like to see the BSA drop the whole issue of religious belief, and move on into the 21st Century. This of course won't happen, but it would solve some of the problems facing the BSA today. Can a perons be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter? I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god.

I know the BSA does not allow athiest, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters. I am wonder this because I am a long time Scouter and an Agnostic. I feel some internal ethical turmoil over this question of religion in the overall BSA program. Personally I'd like to see the BSA drop the whole issue of religious belief, and move on into the 21st Century. This of course won't happen, but it would solve some of the problems facing the BSA today. Can a perons be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter? I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)