Bobanon

The WW II generation, my father's generation, are and were giants on the Earth. I don't believe we will ever see a more selfless generation. I know my own generation, the baby boomers, could not, nor don't have the right to carry their lunch boxes. I know many WW 2 vets, and they are passing from us at an alarming rate. The WW 2 generation is indeed the greatest generation.

Campcrafter either I didn't receive it, or I am not seeing the link on the tool bar for private messages. On ohter forums that have private messaging you will usually have a notice and a link to click for private messages. Either way, I don't have your message.

OhAdam, Good for you. The UU is a great place with fine friendly folks. I thoroughly have enjoyed openness of the people, and the friendly atmosphere. It is my sincerest hopes that you have the same experience. I know that I have learned much over the last four years. The books are all great reads too. I have plenty more titles if you are interested If you like you can email me at BobAnon57@yahoo.com

Okay Ed I am not a preacher or sunday school teacher who will feed you information like pablum. I supplied you with titles, now its up to you. Hunt I believe that the BSA would accept the charter of a new unit where the CO was a white supremist church as quickly as they would one from a Baptist Church. Why, its plain and simple......money.

OldGreyEagle, I have been everything from a Den Leader to a Crew Advisor, Commisioner, yada, yada yada. Right now I am between jobs (so to speak), and not sure if I want to continue with Scouting. I am pretty well burned out. And as you can tell from my post I do have some differing opinions with mainstream Scouting. That goes double down here in the Bible Belt. Ed again I will not do the leg work for you. I can post one instance after another but you will not believe me. You have to do it on your own. Your unwillingness is from one of three reasons: is it that you are too busy to do the work yourself, or are you too scared of what you might find, or are you just too lazy?

"There is widespread faking of numbers in BSA - the rule - according to a professional - is "don't get caught." And BSA will make determined efforts to cover a professional's tail when he is challenged." So much for TRUSTWORTHY.

I don't necessarily believe that churches would suffer. If religion promotes discrimination maybe they need to die out. I say let it be and allow the whithering hand of superstition to grip us no more. I for one do not seen the omnipotent creator as anything but a loving God. He may not be interested in the affairs of man, but he is still a force of unconditional love, and the face it the god of the bible is anything but loving, especially unconditionally. First of all it is not the responsibility of the Federal Government to define marriage. Marriage in the eyes of government should be wholly secular and seen as a contract between two people of lawful age. Religion should not work into the equation in any form or fashion. Second how much of the gay marriage issue and band is being promoted behind the scenes of the U.S. insurance industry. They could stand to loose money possibly if gay marriages were or are accepted univerasally across the U.S. I can see the insurance industry fighting this one tooth and nail, and possibly see them as the root of the anti-gay forces.

The funny thing is I can see the BSA accepting a Troop or Pack who's Charter Organization is a white supremest church. Ed, you are going to have to make the journey yourself. I did, and nobody held me by the hand, or showed me the way. Doing the research on your on makes it more valid and more believable to yourself. I could tell you one item after another yet you wouldn't believe simply because you didn't sweat to find the truth on your on. I will relent and give you an easy source though. Obtain a copy of Dr. Israel Finklestein and Neil Silberman's book "The Bible Unearthed". Finklestein is director of the Nadler INstitute of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and Silberman is director of historical presentation at the Ename Center for Public Archaeology and Heritage Preservation in Belgium. Both are contributing Editors to Archaeology magazine.

Ed you need to come to your own conclusions. It is not my place to undermine what you believe. With that said, if you want to look into the issue further you'll need to spend some time and effort reading. I suggest: "The Fallible Gospels" by Graham Lawrence. This shows where many of tales of the bible originated. An example is the already mention 10 Commandments being taken from a Zorastorian legend of their 15 Commandments. "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris "Stealing Jesus" by Bruce Bawer (this really isn't a work disproving religion, but gives a consise history of fundmenatalist Christianity and is a great read). "Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism" by Susan Jacoby. A very good read. There is a lot of information out there. You need to do the research on your own for it to be valid Ed. I could tell you down to the jot and tittle, but you would deny it. If you do your own research it gives it more value and credibility to your own self.

Ed extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You can "know" in your heart until the cows come home that God gave man the bible, but that doesn't make it true. There are several text that make the claim that it is the gift of god to man. Which one is the real book of God? I say none for God's business isn't the Book of The Month Club.

SaintCad it is nothing more than pick and choose theology. The unbending approach that Ed and ones like him take toward Christianity forces them to pick and choose what parts of the bible they support. Areas like Leviticus and all the nonsensical laws therein, is one example of a part they would avoid like the plague. Jesus said that he didn't bring a new law but came to support the old law. Which was the law of Moses, and those outlined in Leviticus. However, this point is ignored for convienience sake. Ed, I did point out where the ten commandments came from. That is factual. If you choose not to believe history over what is written in the Bible then that is your business. Just because you believe that the Bible in infallible and the absolute truth doesn't make it so. And Ed this is Genesis 1:27 God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Maybe you don't know the bible like you claim. You certainly don't know the history of your religion, but then you shouldn't feel bad. I have found very few fundamentalist who do.

Ed before you go admonishing people about the bible, it might be in your best interest to do a little studying yourself. the Bible is fraught with contradictions. These inconsistencies are proof that the Bible is of human and not divine origins. Only fundamentalist christians take a literalist view of the bible. Lets look at some of the inconsistencies: Two different creation stories - Genesis 1:1-2:3, and Gensis 2:4-25 The creation of Eve - Gensis 1:27, and Genesis 2:20-22 A side note on Noah and the Ark. Consider this Ed; There are over 250,000 varieties of beetles in the world. Don't you think that Noah would have run out of room rather quickly? The contradiction of who wrote the 10 Commandments: Exodus 34:1, and Exodus 34:27 In the New Testament the 4 Gospels differ on the story of Mary visiting the tomb of Jesus and with whom. These are just a small fraction of the contradicitons and inconsistencies of the Bible. Even by the the second century CE. Celsus a pagan critic complained that Christians manipulated their sacred texts at will. Contradicitons aside there are many of the stories in the bible which pre-date the bible in some instances by centuries. Much of the Old Testament came about from tales learned in Babylon during the Babylonian exhile. The story of Moses and the 10 commandments for instance was taken from the Zorastorian story of Nebakaneezer decending the ziggurart with the 15 laws which God had given him. Or the invention of hell comes directly from the Zorastorian story of the celestail conflict between the forces of good and evil. There may be parts of the Bible that may be divinely inspired but they are the words of man.

Brent you ask why I left the Presbyterian Church instead of staying and changing it. I will tell you why. I attended the Presbyterian Church for over 40 years, and I loved it. I especially loved the congretation of my specific church for I had known many for most, if not all my life. It was familiar and family. The reason I walked away, and trust me it was one of the hardest things I have ever done, was because when I reflected on my own true beliefs they were not instep in the least with the Presbyterian Church or Christianity for that matter. If I have to put a label on my beliefs then I am an agnosto-deist. I wrestled with my own hypocracy every Sunday. I did resign as an Elder long before I walked away completely simply because I couldn't be truthful in my beliefs and those required to being an elder. I think that we humans need the communal experience of spirituality. This may be strictly genetic, not that it matters. Luckily I was able to find the Unitarian Universalist Church. The UU is a diverse group of people. I think I am a better man for changing, and have learned much about different religions that I may not have otherwise been exposed to. I think each of us has our own theology and beliefs in our hearts. I don't believe reciting dogma by rote fills the niche, but for some it is the easiest way, and not that it is bad. For them it is what they need. I needed something more, and have found it. Presbyterianism is one of the most liberal of Christian denominations and I admit I had guilt feelings for several years after leaving. And too I missed many of the people, and that has been the hardest part. Life goes on, and we continually grow. I was true to myself, and feel to be better for what course I chose.

Brent Allen, You posted: "Do y'all think there is a large group inside the BSA who wants this policy to change?" Let me start off by saying that I do not like the homophobic extremist, nor do I like the in your face gay extremist. Extremist from either side of the argument loose me early on. We all know homosexual people. When I have cause to discuss the gay issue I think of those gays whom I know or have known. When talking about gays I think it better to put a human face on them instead of thinking of them as "those people". I believe by and large people are more tired of the argument than of the specific issue itself. Look at voter turnout in presidential election as an example - people are disgusted by the political rhetoric by election day and don't vote). I think that the silent majority would be accepting of gay Scouts and Scouters while the anti gay faction will always be just that, anti gay, and that is certainly thier right to feel that way, just as I have a right to believe otherwise. Homosexuals are not child molesters, and two deep leadership has been a good practice on keeping molestations to a minimum. There will always be problems with that I suppose, but the organization is doing a good job of combating that problem. We are certainly having better luck than the Roman Catholic Church in regards to child molestation. And I don't mean that as a slight against the RCC.

I am not against free association per se. However, I do not support activities that discriminate against people. Espcially when it is discrimination based on unsound reasoning. The BSA can stay it's current course and see further marginilization and a more and more hostile society. I hate seeing the BSA in such a position, and do not like Scouts seen by society as a bunch of little Eichmanns. The reasoning behind the current practices of barring homosexuals is due to the religious teaching of one religious tradition, namely the religions that started with Abraham. The BSA should promote the highest ideals of American society, and shouldn't pick an choose which to support and which to ignore. The demographics of America are changing and have changed radically since the late 1970's. And it will continue to change through immigration, and no I'm not illuding to illegal immigration, but that too will have an impact. Would we rather an organization that is seen favorable by the majority of Americans? Or do we want to continue where our boys are heckled such as being booed at the Democratic convention in San Diego. Boy Scouts should not be placed in a position where they are at odds with mainstream society. I know brent allen will post about the various state elections that voted marriage between a man and woman, etc as an example of just what the nation thinks as a whole. However, that is a somewhat skewed version since the issue of gay marriage became the deciding issue of the 04 election cylce, and the extremist of the religious right spend beaucoup bucks on advertising in an attempt to scare the voting public, which did happen. Are we a youth organization based on the highest ideals or are we a youth organization based upon the book of Leviticus and nothing more than little Klansman?