wbcarley

Evmori, I may be slow, but you are going to have be more clear. You suggest that I " Look at the projects with the Eagle project guidelines then answer the question." I have looked at them with the definition from the Handbook (While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religious institution, school, or your community.) and with the clarification from the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook. So my (initial) determination that they don't meet the criteria is merely my opinion, it is my interpretation of the guidelines. Admittedly different people will interpret words like "plan" and "leadership", and we could get very Clintonesque (define "it" and define "relations"), but I think my interpretation is reasonable. Of course it could be that most Scouters interpret these words differently, which is why I am asking for what others think. I would love to hear what you think. Brennan

EVMORI, Um, I thought I answered the question of why they didn't meet the bar in an earlier post. i.e. - Rounding up a few scouts to help out some elderly folk with "heavy lifting cleaning yard work" falls into the (excluded) category of routine labor. - In the case of the food drive, as currently defined it doesn't seem to meet any reasonable definition of the words "planning", "directing" and "leadership of others." Brennan

evmori, "Do the projects these Scouts proposed meet this "bar"?" I don't believe so, but I am here seeking other (experienced) opinions. scoutldr, "Why don't you just tell them that?" I do plan to tell them exactly that, but I wanted to get a sanity check first. ScoutNut "Simply let them know they must put some more thought into, and expand on, the "plan" and "develop" portions of what they have given you." That's what I plan to do. jet526 "By extending it to include multiple organizations, over a longer period of time, with ambitious but obtainable goals and then distribute the items to those in need and not just an agency they can demonstrate the leadership required." I like those ideas. As it stands, the proposal is simply to collect food via the church and other scouts, and drop it off at the agency. Your suggestions would make it cross the threshold to make it an Eagle project in my eyes. Brennan

EVMORI, my "bar" for this is based on the requirement in the BSA Handbook, i.e. While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to your religious institution, school, or your community. That is further clarified by the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, which says: - you must accept responsibility for planning, directing, and following through to its successful completion. - The amount of time spent by you in planning your project and the actual working time spent in carrying out the project should be as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others. It also excludes certain things such as: - "Routine labor (a job or service normally rendered) should not be considered." - "Projects may not be a fund-raiser. Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials needed to carry out the project." So applying that bar, it is pretty easy for me to see that my scout's proposal to "meet on weekends for 3 weeks and we help out the elderly with jobs that they cant do like heavy lifting cleaning yard work" falls into the (excluded) category of routine labor. In the case of the food drive, it doesn't seem to meet any reasonable definition of the words "planning", "directing" and "leadership of others." i.e. asking people to donate food requires no meaningful planning or directing, and no leadership. Also the requirements explicitly ban fund-raisers, and while this is not a fund-raiser per se, asking people to donate food seems awfully close to asking them to donate money (and in some economies food actually is money!) Not that there is anything wrong with asking people to donate food, nor is this a bad thing for the community. But it still feels like half a project. And per shortridge's comments there already are a number of organizations in the community that do food drives. In fact, when my son heard this proposed Eagle project, he fell down laughing, because he had done a similar project in 6th grade (his school regularly runs food drives and each year a different student runs the food drive.) SHORTRIDGE, thanks for the suggestions... I don't want to torpedo this project because it can help the community, but I need the Scout to beef it up. Brennan

I recently took on the Scoutmasters role in my Troop, and one of the (many) things that I have discovered is the appallingly low bar set for Eagle projects. While I have one Eagle candidate who just completed a fine project (reconstructing a trail), for most the expectatuiin is very low. (e.g. I have one proposal which, in its entirety is: "i am looking for and eagle scout project and suggest that scouts meet on weekends for 3 weeks and we help out the elderly with jobs that they cant do like heavy lifting cleaning yard work or any thing else that can be done.") My most recent proposal is from scout who proposes to collect food and then deliver it to a center for low-income families. The scout proposes that he put together a flier for other scouts to hand out and collect donations, post a similar notice in the church bulletin, man a table at the church for 3 weeks to collect donations, then bring the scouts together for a Saturday to bag the donations and drive them to the center. While this seems like a nice thing to do, it doesn't seem to meet the bar for an Eagle project. Specifically, it is hard to see what leadership is required. I would be curious to know what others think. Brennan

Calico, yes, given that the prior SM has approved him, I have decided to let him go ahead with BoR, and implement the proper standard for future scouts. Bob, regarding monthly camping trips (which I inherited, i.e. the schedule was already published when I took the role, but in any case I happen to agree with it), a few points: - First, the reason for having them often is that it gives scouts more opportunities if they have conflicts. i.e. If you have only one trip every two months, and a boy misses one, now he is going to have to wait 2 more months until the next trip. The more trips you have, the less it matters if you miss one or two, because there will be another opportunity soon. - Second, I didn't actually say I had an attendance problem. The boys who are active are really active (another reason to give them lots of camping opportunities... some of them would camp every weekend if they could!) We get pretty good attendance at meetings and camping trips. What I was referring to was a handful of scouts who are not active AT ALL, but who believe (usually it is the parents who make the argument) that they should advance anyway. - Third, I said "camping" to simplify things... Most of them are (1 night) camping trips, but some of our monthly outdoor activities are hikes, and in most cases when we go camping we get some boys who come along for the hike but then head home at the end (i.e. they just treat it as a day hike, which is fine.) - Finally, the reason we have no patrol outings is more fundamental... we effectively have had no patrols. This year I am working on the basics of getting patrols organized (e.g. having them plan, cook, and tent together on troop outings.) Next year we will explicitly book time on the calendar for "Patrol outing" days where they do their own events. Thanks for all of your feedback... I am still learning, so this is a great help! Brennan

Bob, Sorry if I was unclear in my comments. Most of our boys play sports and have other activities, which is great. My own son plays basketball, baseball, tournament chess, skis, and and plays drums in a jazz band. Plus he is very active in scouts. Where I have a problem is if a boy doesn't attend a single camping trip (and we have them every month, summer included), fewer han half of the meetings, and still expects to advance. Just like, as a coach, I have a problem if a boy skips every practice and expects to start. So yes, sports and other activities are great, I encourage them, and many boys can balance that with scouting. But if a boy isn't active in scouts, I don't see that they should advance. Brennan

Guys, thanks for all the advice, I appreciate it! Crew21_Adv, part of my problem is that the Troop records are VERY weak... something I am addressing now that I am SM. So the records show no leadership position since 2006, but then again the records could be wrong. As for PLCs, we have held them monthly since I became SM, and it has been a struggle but we are making progress. Prior SM held one PLC a year (and no, it wasn't an annual program planning conference, since he basically just re-used prior year's program...) The boys are beginning to understand the purpose of the PLC and attendance is good, so we have a start! Regarding my Life Scout: - I have a meeting with him soon to review all of this, so I will find out more. - As far as I can tell, he hasn't attended a camping trip in 2 years (i.e. since becoming Life) except for one summer camp. - The boys who were members of "his" patrol (at least according to the troop records, which as I said are weak) have no memory of ever having a patrol meeting! So based on my standards (and those of the BSA), he hasn't earned it. I just spoke to my predecessor, and he explained that: - The boy hadn't camped out for the last 2 years because he was involved in sports, and camping trips were a conflict. - He didn't want to "penalize" the boy for this. - So he approved him for Eagle rank as one of his final outgoing acts.... In short, the boy apparently believes he has been approved by the SM for Eagle and is just waiting for the BoR. My conclusion is that the boy really hasn't earned Eagle. For that matter, nor have most of the scouts in the Troop who received Eagle under my predecessor. But it doesn't seem fair to penalize the boy, as he has met the dismally low expectations of the Troop. It would also probably create a lot of ill will to undo what apparently has been done by the prior SM, and the boy will have a very cynical view of adults who say one thing and then do another. So I will probably let this one go, and make sure that every scout who remains in the troop understands what my expectations are for the future (which are the the expectations of the BSA.) Brennan (my name... I haven't figured out yet how to update my profile to show my name, will figure that out soon!) P.S. I have had several scouts/parents/leaders explain to me that boys are busy with sports/band/whatever, which is why they can't participate in the scouting activities. Of course if I were the coach (I do coach baseball), and a kid explained to me that he wanted to be our starting shortstop, but couldn't make any practices because he was busy with Boy Scouts, I would explain to him that was nice, but that the guys who are starters are expected to show up for practice. In my book, life is about making choices and accepting the consequences of those choices. Some boys will choose to commit to football and make first string. That's great. Others will choose to commit to scouting and make Eagle. That's great too. Some will have such awesome talent and time management skills that they do both. But most will have to choose, and as parents or leaders, we do them a dis-service by recognizing them for something they haven't earned.

Bob, Thanks, I am actually doing that as well. We have now held 3 Patrol Leaders Council meetings and I have had separate meetings with just the SPL and 2 ASPLs to do exactly that. They get the idea, but are just starting to understand what leadership means (since they haven't had any role models in the past.) In this instance my problem is that this scout isn't even in the PLC and has attended so few messages that he hasn't heard the message. (I spoke to his father primarily because I know that if I hold this scout back from advancement, I will get a call from the parents, and I want to pre-empt that.) So for most of the scouts I am doing exactly as you say, and some of them are responding and stepping up (others, as you note, are not destined for Eagle, and that;s Ok too.) My immediate problem is how to handle some legacy situations. Thanks!

I recently took over as Scoutmaster, having been involved in the Troop for 2 years, the last as an ASM. The prior SM was a nice guy, but not a strong leader. The Troop was not boy led (everything was organized by the adults, mostly the SM, and mostly just repeating the same program year after year), Patrols were non-existent in practice (one reason I chose to become involved was when I asked my son who his patrol leader was, and he didn't know.. they had never had a patrol meeting!), skills development was very weak, and advancement was pretty much automatic. In particular, the Troop has produced probably the highest number of Eagle scouts in the Council, with the fewest who have truly earned the rank. OK, I am "Monday morning quarterbacking", but I see little evidence that these boys have truly earned the rank. From what I can see, most of them "checked out" of Scouting around the time they got Life, barely if ever showed up, did a minimal Eagle project, got their Eagle, and were proud to put it on their college application. This was tolerated because "they are good kids", they "are active in sports", etc. Unfortunately, it deprived the boys of leadership experience, and it deprived the Troop of any older boys who could lead the younger ones. I am working on rebuilding the troop, implementing the patrol method, etc. Here is today's problem: One of the Scouts spoke to me at the end of the Troop meeting, to let me know that he was ready for his Eagle Board of Review, and would I schedule that. I asked him if he had met all of his requirements, and he responded that he had. We haven't had an Eagle Board of Review since I became Scoutmaster, so I promised that I would check to see how we set that up. In the meantime, I wanted to get myself comfortable that he is ready in preparation for a Scoutmaster Conference. Based on the records that I have, he is not. He achieved Life rank 2 1/2 years ago. For the last 6 months, he has attended about 1/3 of the Troop meetings, and none of the (4) camping trips. The Troop participation records only go back six months (when I became SM), but I can't remember this scout participating in ANY camping trip I attended in the last 2 years (which is most of them.) I also looked at the advancement records. He earned 4 merit badges right after achieving Life in May of 2006, all at summer camp that July. He then earned 4 more this past March, all of which are badges that are generally earned outside of scout activities (e.g. Family Life, Personal Management....) So there is no data in that 2 year period to suggest that he has been active in the Troop. He does not currently hold a leadership role in the Troop. Again looking back in the records, the last leadership position that he held was in Spring of 2006, the position he held while working on his Life rank (and therefore doesn't count towards Eagle.) I spoke to his father, who tells me that: - He was active for the period after achieving Life Scout, although not recently. - He held the position of Patrol Leader for the 2006-2007 school year. (This is not reflected in the records.) So here are my questions: - First, let's assume he actually was active for that 6 month period, and actually served as Patrol Leader in 2006/2007. Since he hasn't been active in about 18 months, does that prior period 'count" towards Eagle rank? Technically I suppose it could, but I don't feel happy about promoting a scout to Eagle who has effectively been inactive for that long. - Second, as far as I can see, no patrol leader under the previous Scoutmaster ever acted as a Patrol Leader. None of the boys that I talked to who were PLs when I became SM had even seen or read the PL Handbook, none had completed Troop Leadership training, none had held a Patrol meeting, they didn't camp as Patrols, they didn't know which scouts were even in their patrols... but they had been elected and worn the patch. Surely that can't count as a position of responsibility. To be fair to the boys, they met the expectations that were set for them, which were extremely low. For that, the prior SM was responsible and I can't "blame" the boys. But equally, I have a really hard accepting that they have met the requirements, especially for Eagle. The good news here is that this boy is only 16, so he has about a year and a half to complete his requirements, which should be plenty of time. Therefore my inclination is not to recommend him to the Board of Review, and require that he serve in a real position of responsibility (i.e. if he is a Patrol leader I expect him to perform the job) for 6 months before he goes to his BOR. Feedback?