WasE61

Yep, Scouts is uncool...depending on who you talk to, so is Band, Choir, Debate Club, LGBT Club, Bible Club ... that's the world, deal with it. The problem is Scouts is a universal target. Self inflicted by the elitist (Eagle)/discriminatory (anti-Gay) aire of Scouting. Mine wore his Summer Camp shirt to high school the first week of school. I told him that was not a smart idea, he said, "So what." Hasn't worn it a second time... I don't recall any Cub or Scout in uniform when I was in school.

I was talking to a couple engineer friends of mine at a party on Saturday. The topic of STEM came up...the verdict was unanimous ... what bunch of hot air and waste of time. The whole premise is false ... that there is a shortage of engineering and other high tech talent in the US. The issue isn't the supply side, its the demand. There's a shortage in the US, because all the high-tech companies outsourced the positions to India, China, Israel, Bulgaria, Hungary, Turkey ... and pushed the engineers in the US out of the business. Now that those Companies have learned that sending the technology to the third world results in poor results and IP theft, they're crying that they can't hire engineers...well that's false. There are plenty of out of work engineers in all disciplines in the US...they companies just want to hire them for the price of those in India/China/Bulgaria/Turkey ... For the most part, your average modern-day engineer spends most of his career either waiting for the next layoff/salary cut, or trying to recover from it. Have your kids go into law or medicine.

I will take exception that only Scouting gives a lifelong benefit. I've played trumpet and trombone for 30 years. My oldest plans to become a professional trombonist. ===== As for cost, Scouting has been far more expensive than baseball from my experience. I would think the price comparisons were a bit skewed in the sports examples. Most of the local sports leagues in the area at about $100 per season...that is an equivalent level of participation to your basic Scouting. If you want to compare club-ball (which I despise in any sport), then you have to throw that into the same category as Venturing. Also, if you play sports for recreation, you can jump in an out as you wish. Scouting isn't rec....you don't see kids bounce in and out....it's club ball. (This message has been edited by WasE61)

Interesting topic. My findings are different. HR in my two most recent employers has flatly stated that they cannot and will not make any additional consideration for mention of BSA or Eagle. While "Eagle" may spark interest by managers or reviewers who are "in the club", it will not be considered as a factor between candidates. The reason is the of course the discriminatory practices of BSA. My wife and I actually had a long discussion about BSA and the impact it could have on our son's life. She's even gone to the point to talk to him about "morally straight" and exactly what that means. Unfortunately, I don't think she covered the impact of what other people think it means. To be honest in the 100 or so resumes I've read over the past 25 years, I've never seen BSA mentioned a single time. We came to the conclusion that on your generic college and employment application, stating BSA is now risky at best. If the reviewer is gay or lesbian, or a non-believer, or an ethnic minority; I think there is a high probability that the application is going to get circular filed.

Tokala : I think you might have missed a subtlety ... that being that neither the BSA nor the CO insurance will cover a civil action that is based on a criminal act. From other postings, that is what the UMC is worried about; civil exposure from criminal acts (of sexual abuse) by Scout leaders. No insurance will cover the damages in that case. So, the UMC may be looking for BSA to indemnify them out of their own pockets. BSA's position has been that it is the CO's responsibility to weed out the ineligibles, but with BSA keeping records and not necessarily notifying the CO's, nor the authorities, its become a rats nest of culpability. Possibly the UMC no longer trusts BSA to keep the CO's best interest. In fact, there could even be a case for not just suing the organizations, but also the individuals in those organizations. Churches don't generally protect volunteers, typically just the clergy and board members are covered...so if the COR is not specifically protected, they are at financial risk as well.

"The issue was over the liability issue if lawsuits are filed over sexual abuse. Guess they didn't realize that the defendent can choose who to sue regardless of an agreement between the charter partners." Yeah, BSA had to see that one coming a million miles away. No insurance coverage for criminal acts. So without a guarantee of indemnity, someone is sticking their necks out, be it BSA or the CO's.

I don't believe the Magic Bullet theory. My Dad always figured it was Johnson/CIA or possibly the Russians over the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Ah, there are so many normal morals.

"All Scouting is local...will your 11 year olds understand why they can't go camping any more? " If you take the time to explain it....yes.

My Scout's gone on one winter camp, a few others have been cancelled due to poor travel conditions. I don't recall his reaction to the one...but the cost of all the gear that he outgrew in a month was kinda prohibitive. I can't imagine intentionally doing it myself...too many years freezing my tail off growing up in Ohio....

No sure where it fits in the whole scheme of Scouting, but how about the Drop Proof Egg Carton contest. Using some common set of materials, each person contrives a device that will hold 1 raw egg in the shell. The devices are dropped from the top of a 10 ft ladder. A broken egg is disqualified. If more than one egg survives, you increase the height to 11'...12'.... until one is left. Messy, but fun.

If you really want the policy to change, then the SM's an ASM's should change it. All you have to do is stop working until the policy is changed. Take a vote of the boys...then if agreed, send this...following that whole "boy led" mantra. Dear BSA, Were are adult leaders for Troop XX in City, State. Our Troop has taken a vote. Until the admission policy on gay members changes, all activity in this troop will cease. Regards, After 10,000 or so of those showed up in Irving...by email...on the same day...it would take about 30 seconds for Irving to have a CtJM (Come to Jesus Moment). This would do a couple of things...1) the public would view Irving as that bad guys, and 2) the public would view the local troop leaders/CO's/Scouts as the good guys. Not that yall are interested in that.

No. In this case, Obama would have one either way.

Yeah, every couple of years Texas threatens to leave ... Arizona as well. Texas does it because, well, it's Texas...who knows why. Arizona does it for various excuses, but under that there is usually some mining interest pushing it... deep copper mining near Phoenix, uranium mining in the Grand Canyon. It's what happens when you have total corrupt goofballs in the state government.

"Makes no difference to Scouting, which has a constitutional right to maintain its values, or change them should it decide that's the right thing to do." Maybe... Depends on if the Feds decide you are violating someones civil rights, eh?

Oh lets see... 1) Don't choose candidates who's religious delusions get in the way of rational thought processes... Akin, Murdoch, Ryan, Romney. 2) Don't choose candidates that have "cute factor" over "intelligence" ... Palin. 3) Don't choose candidates who have to pretend they know how hard it is to work for a living, while they wonder how much their blind trust has benefited from banking deregulation, outsourcing and other activities that have damaged the country they want to lead. 4) Don't tell anyone about the "Binders of Women" that you have ... it sounds creepy. By the way, is "binders" a noun or a verb? 5) Generally, if you are a male, you should leave your views on female reproductive rights and rape in your head...if you have 10 kids and a bazillion grandkids, we kinda have it figured out anyway. I voted for Obama...not because I liked Obama, but because I did not want the potential of 8 years of Romney.

"To this day, I'm never sure if I'm a good person?" In a similar vein, I once told someone that I'm certain that I'm not a good parent because I always question my decisions...even the trivial ones. His response was that the fact that you question yourself so closely says that you far better parent than most.

I would imagine, at least in the near future, there might be some instances where participation in Scouting might be viewed as detrimental. Could there be a case where an employer or college admissions staff member sees, Boys Scouts of America on an application and wonders for a moment if the applicant has any baggage from being abused as a Scout? The same can be said for the staff and participants in "The Second Mile" or even Penn State athletics department...maybe even now the Catholic Church.

I agree Calico. The top is responsible because they made the policy. Unfortunately, the men in the trenches didn't see past the immorality of that policy. Maybe that is what changes now. I hope so anyway.

Sure Mike, I'll play along. What do you do? I report the YPT violations to Council and the Police. Then I tell the Minister the truth of what I know. It is a moral imperative. What is your potential for being sued if you relay your opinions and he doesn't get the job? From my first answer, I think you have the idea that I don't care of potential ramifications when it comes to protecting children. Do you think such a person would want to go to open Court and have his questionable behavior aired out? You either have moral compass in your pocket, or you don't.

I agree with Calico ... if you have knowledge (or even a strong suspicion of) of a criminal act against a child, then you have the moral obligation to report it...anonymously if need be. Mandatory reporting requirements be damned. My wife just took YPT again ...ironically, she missed the question on who to notify for an abuse claim...she answered local BSA and Police. The "correct" answer was just the local BSA. Her response to that was "like heck...I'll call the cops first."

It is interesting that he places responsibility of the abuse scandal only at the doorstep of Irving. When every Council was actually involved. Kinda naive.

It seems with the indictment of Graham Spanier, the former PSU president, a new trail of culpability is being blazed. http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/11/graham_spanier_says_gov_tom_co.html It remains to be seen how wide this will spread.

All fine, well and good. More involvement between organizations is a good thing. I don't buy the privacy law issue...since all "suspicions" are now supposed to be turned over to the Police. But without full disclosure to the public (including all of the files from 1988 to date) of everything going on in BSA, the public is going to be as wary as they are of Penn State. Every youth program has this problem ... I have no doubt. I do think BSA, by the nature of the program, offers more opportunity for problems.

Saw a report on the news this morning about a teenage girl who took the family generator and set it up outside yesterday (and today) with a ton of power strips plugged in so neighbors could recharge their cell phones. Even plugged in a coffeemaker! Cool kid.