Bob White

Nothing personal about it Barry, just wondered why his result couldn't be 100% since that is what it was? I was hoping he wasn't going to have to go back and force some unsuspecting scout to move just because data isn't always prefect. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bob Just because someone follows a syllabus DOES NOT make them or the training they are giving to be of a high quality. It sure makes the odds of having the right information taught a whole lot better than by NOT following the syllabus! I think most participants' first expectation is to get accurate information. An engaging presenter is a welcome bonus.

BW's progression had that same character, eh? But even more was put in a single meetin'. In his second meetin' for example, kids are taught campout planning, how to pack a backpack, basic health issues for camping, basic first aid for camping, and the basics of menu planning. Dat's conservatively about 10 times more than any of the BSA's Program Features do in a single night. Actually its not but even if it were is there a problem with having a more active program? Remeber the meeting outlines in the Trrop Program resources are a primer. A first year Scouter and a young PLC would be fine with those plans. It is designed a a beginning level. Once a unit has seasoned leaders with ample resoures you can get a lot more into a 90 minute meeting. After all just as scouts get better with their skills with practice... a leader should get better in their skills with practice as well. Not sure how long it takes some leaders to teach 3 basic skills (pack a back pack, cuts and burns, personal hygiene). But I know a lot of Scouts and Scouters who can easily cover those in a fun way in the course of a 90 minute program and have the information retained.

Here is my point. There is a thread about a young SPL and other junior leaders not being listened to by the scouts. The overwhelming advice is that if a scout doesn't do what he is 'told to do' punish him. I am trying to figure out why junior leaders are running around telling people what to do (especially the SPL) and where that kind of behavior comes from. It isn't hard to figure out. Young people learning leadership skills copy what the adult leaders do with them. If the adult leaders, as modeled in the thread, have a philosopy of 'do what you are told or there will be "consequenses" ' then that is how a young leader will believe you should lead people. If a patrol leader is always "telling" patrol members what to do its probably because that is how he is treated by the SPL, and the SPL is doing it because the SM does it. So if you want to change the leadership style in the junior leader so they are an effective leader, who needs to change first? Gosh, I wish I could have a cool accent when I typed

Hi John, Lots of miisconceptions to talk about here but before I start could you help me out. You wrote "I see mandated compliance in Scouting at four points: National Camp Standards (which is a safety, liability, and labor law check), Advancement standards, especially at the level of Eagle Scout, youth protection, and commercial use of Scoutings trademarks (see the thread on the Rasmussens in Council Relations). National Camp standards, Advancement, Scouting Tademarks. I only count three areas. What do you see as the fourth? Thanks BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is an good example as to why units should follow the three tier program levels. Not all scouts are ready for the same actvities.

My intend was to differentiate the term in office of the NSP patrol leader as compared to the other Pls. Your are correct all Pls are temporary, some more than others as is the case in the NSP. TLC is an older term that was used for many years sorry if my terms slipped back a few years. Thanks for the tweak.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Venividi There seems to be a rash of blaming a weak unit program on a lot of things and people other than the person who is responsible for the unit program. Would you agree that there is enough training and enough resources that identify the Scoutmaster as responsible for the troop program that no trained leader should believe that anyone or anything else is responsible? If a person has that responsibility as well as a responsibility to the scouts in the unit, yet doesn't lead a program that is FILLED with activities that teach and apply the skills, should feel a little bad about that? I never said it was any one specific, I said that a leader who did that should be ashamed.

Actually Beavah there is. As part of the New Scout Patrol program the scouts rotate through the position of Patrol Leader so that each scout attends a PLC and sees how a troop administration is designed. That is why the Troop Guide is a PLC member as well, so that they can guide each scout through the PLC process. It also gives each scout an opportunity to learn and practice some basic Scout leadership skills and gives them an understanding of what will be expected of them in the future should they accept a leadership skill. As far as planning what goes on within a Patrol, the PLC does not determine any patrol's program or activity. Nowhere in the BSA program, or any adult or youth leadership training, is it taught that the PLC has that responsibility. Patrols are individual units under the leadership of their own elected Patrol Leader. This ties into the conversation of who is the SPL in charge of...No one. "Some that do have a NSP phase their new scouts into regular patrols after 3-6 months, some don't." Actually you are very close to what the BSA program says. The entir passage is as follows. "The New Scouts function together as a patrol for the first year in the troop, working toward their goal of becoming First Class rank. Some troops phase their new Scouts into regular Patrols after three to six months." Kinda adds a whole new dimension doesn't it? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't see how you can argue Philt's 100% result! He never said that 100% was his goal. He said that in his sampling 100% was the measured result. Eagledad disagrees saying that you will ALWAYS have someone who moves. Really? ALWAYS? I can agree that it is possible that in a sampling someone might move but is it a requirement that in every sampling someone will move? I don't think it is. Evidently in Philts sampling no one did. I know when my wife was a den leader she had the exact same kids for 4 years and no one moved the entire time. I think if in Philt's sampling no one did, then evidently...no one did.(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Absolutely right! As Other posters and I have said the quality of the trainer is as important as the quality of the leader that attends. Trainers need to follow the BSA syllabus and know and understand the resources that support the BSA program. But as Beavah pointed out there is the Boy Scout Handbook the Scoutmaster Handbook and other resources availeble to every Scoutleader. It is not difficult to read the few handbooks and know whether you trainer is following the program. Attending training is not the end of learning.

The Scouts are involved, they are leaders in training, the Scoutmaster is responsible. Check out the Scoutmasters job description. The very first line reads "the Scoutmaster is responsible for the program and image of the troop." If the skills learned from Tenderfoot through First Class are not being practiced, applied and built-on as an intregal part of the troop program then the Scoutmaster is responsible for the gap, not the BSA, not the advancement program, not the Scout, not the PLC.

Keep in mind that Tenderfoot to First Class skills are not meant as the be all and end all of skill development. They represent basic skills. You and the scout have nearly 7 mores years to build upon them in the troop program alone. If a scout earns First Class rank and never has an opportunity to learn more about first aid or practice the skill until he is 17 and working on his first merit badge....shame on the troop leader responsible for that unit's program. The gaps you identify are supposed to be filled by something called the unit program.

My apologies Eamonn, I am by no means supporting an "I'm in charge" leadership. I was working my way to a point regarding the way many scouts and scouters view leadership. How often have you heard the complaint from scouts and scoutmasters alike that "the scouts won't do what the _______(fill in the leadership title of choice) tells them to" Would you agree that strongly suggests a leadership environment where there are people "in charge" of others? If everyone seems to agree that the SPL or PL is not an "in charge" position, then where does that attitude and leadership style come from, and what can a Scoutmaster due to avoid that problem in a troop or patrol? It seemed a worthwhile topic. When I teach knots and lashings I first try and find out what knots the participants already know. So sometimes when I discuss a topic it helps me to find out what participants already know. BW

No one can make that decision for you, or even imagine what level of frustration you have or do not have. Or even know how much time or effort you are willing to invest in the current unit. I do commend you on what you are trying to accomplish. Your evaluation of what is and what should be show that you understand where the unit has parted ways from the actual scouting program. If you decide to stay I would suggest you start by personally re-establishing the relationship with the charter organization. Meet with the Institutional Head (IH) and the Charetr Organization Representative (CR). This is their troop, they should have picked you not the committee. Come to an agreement among the three of you as to what direction you want the troop to go then meet jointly with the Scoutmaster and explain your goals to him. I would caution you against the "informal committee" most parents are not trained in the program and as parents this is not "their troop" the troop belongs to the charter organization and their interests are represented by you, the IH and the CR, not the parents, not the Scoutmaster. The parents may choose to keep their Scouts as members or not. The Scoutmaster and assitants work for the charter organization at the behest of YOU the IH and CR not the other way around. The adult program leaders have an obligation to follow the program of the BSA to meet the shared goals and missions of your Charter organization and the BSA. So get management on the same page, then invite the current program leaders to steer the program along the BSA scouting program. If they are unable, or unwilling to do that then select new leaders who will. Finally select a committee that can help develop resources to support the efforts of the program leaders. Certainly a challenge, but the end result should be rewarding for everyone. Good Luck BW

So then who is the Scoutmaster "in charge" of?

You should never combine patrols. If half the members of the new england Patriots do not show up for a game they do not get blended with the other team. You play the game with the team members that are present. This is a basic tenant of the Patrol system. Two people can camp just as easily as six, you just take gear for two rather than gear for six, its no big deal. You keep suggesting that teaching, practicing and application only happens once. Why is that? Where in scouting was that ever taught to you? I disagree that that most troops have scouts reach First Class in about 18 months. Troops either have a plan and know when Scouts will likely advance or they are as surprised as the Scouts are when advancement happens. As far as my written plan, as I explained there is no need to take that much time typing a years plan when the BSA has given units a primer plan in the Troop Program Resources notebooks. (Woods Wisdom was retired long ago, many of its reference materials have been replaced and requirements were outdated). I will share the though process behind the paln. Learning pracyicing and application is not limited to any place or aany time period. Every moment with a scout is a time when you can be teaching a skill or value, practicing them or applying them. Prior to coming to their first troop meeting a scout and his parents should have met with the SM or the ASM for the New Scout Patrol. In that meeting the values and benefits of Scouting should be explained. The incoming scout can be told of the things he will learfn to do the first year and how these skills will be the basis for greater and greater adventures as he grows in the program. The parents should be instructed to get a handbook if the Scout does not aready have one and to make sure the parents talk is down BEFORE the first Troop meeting. That if the scout has that done and reviews the requirements for the Scout Badge he should be able to recieve his Scout Badge at the end of the first or second meeting he attends. We spend the first meeting welcoming the scout and and we have games that teach the Scout badge requirements and test them individually at the first meeting. The Second meeting is spend planning the foirst campout. They are taught through a game and a following instructional period how to pack a back pack. They learn basic health and first aid issues for camping, and they learn the basics of menu planning. The the third meeting we review the packing llsit in the handbook, cover cold weather first aid and health issue, plan a menu for the campout. and show them a really cool rope trick. Any scout who comes to the next meeting able to tie a tautline hitch gets the secret to doing the rope trick. At the fourth meeting prior to the campout we make fire-starters, we review the first aid they have learned in a game they play. We review the menu and make a list of the utensils and condiments that would be need to make the meals. It is explained to them to think carefully because what is not on the list will not be brought. Then we make firestarters. On the campout we will check to see how they packed and dressed, teaqch how and where to pitch a tent, do woods tools instruction and practice, do fire building instruction and practice, take a nature hike for plant and animal identification instruction. Learn how to tie two half hitches and given rope to go put up personal clothes lines using the two half hitches and the Tautline they had already learned. Given a tour of a model campsite and taught how to pitch a tend. During the next month, as they learn a little more first aid and start their fitness training, they will play games that allow them to practice the skills they learned at the camp out. Do you see how using games, instruction, activity, and the outdoors it will take very little time for these scouts to not only understand and gain competence in the requirements of Tenderfoot but by the end of the third month they will have a few Second and First Class Skills done as well? It's about making learning fun, giving opportunity for practice and application, but most of all making your time with a scout productive and meanigful. If you are only using 12-15 minutes of a 90 minute meeting to teach scouting then shame on you. I hope this helps you understand program planning for the First Year Scout a little better. BW

I am sorry if I gave you that perception. I certainly never said that, and I certainly do not believe that. The Temporary Patrol Leader of the New Scout Patrol and the Troop Guide for that Patrol are both voting members of the Troop Leader Council. They are equals among the other patrol leaders. Attending and particpating in the PLC is one of the ways that the New Scouts are trained in Troop operations as part of the first step in their leadership training. Older Scouts certainly can have a role in training New Scouts as appropriate situations arise, nowhere have I seen anyone suggest that they could not. The PLC would be a great place for the Troop Guide to share the next month's program plan for the New Scout Patrol with the PLC and ask the other Patrol Leaders if they had a Scout who they felt was capable of helping to instruct for a skill or skills. At no point did I say or suggest that only the ASM taught or tested the skills. I said they were responsible for developing and administering the plan. These should not be foriegn concepts to any adult troop leader. These are all taught in the Scoutmaster/ Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Basic Training course.

It's a lot easier to do FCFY if you require 100% attendance While I appreciate that is your personal opinion, there is nothing in First Class Emphasis to suggest or suppoprt that. As others have explained, this is about having a plan, and is unrelated to attendance. When your mom planned a birthday party for you did she plan it based on how many were invited or how many came? In First Class emphasis you plan activities and resources based on the size of the patrol, you cannot wait to see how many show up to decide upon what will be taught or applied. While plans are flexible you still need to start out with a plan! Even in the New Scout Patrol "sign off" takes place in the Patrol setting during application not during the learning phase, and nowhere have I seen anyone who follows First Class emphasis talk about Classroom teaching. Again the Scouting method is active learning with hands on activities to teach skills. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Consider this John, There are very successful unit programs and there are very unsuccessful unit programs. ALL have the same resources, the sme opportunities the same support netwoork, the same advancement requirements, the same age and stages of development in youth served, the Same Aims , Methods, and Mission. So what is the variable that determines the difference in the quality and results of the Scouting program. In other words. I give two builders the same plans the same materials, and the same tools, one builds a great house, one builds a poor house. What is the variable that caused the difference? It is the skills and abilities of the people responsible for building the house. The BSA program gives every unit the same tools and materials, the kind of unit that gets buit will depend on the skills and abilities of the unit leaders. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Lisabob asked a great question about the role of the PLC in the First Class Emphasis Program. Other than understanding that it is a separate program level for first year scouts the PLC has very little to do with it. Nor should they since it is not the PLCs Role to program Patrol functions. The PLC should not decide what the Regular Patrols learn, or what the Venture Patrol does for their activities. Think of the PLC as a communication and coordination hub with the SPL in the Center and the various patrols are individual spokes which are all interconnected through the SPL at the center and around the rim to each other. Would you want the New Scout Patrol telling the Venture Patrol what to do, or vice versa? Of course not. The PLC is where representatives of the three program levels share information and coordate their efforts under the guidance of the Senior Patrol Leader. The program for First Class Emphasis and the New Scout Patrol's program is in the hands of the Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols and the Troop Guide(s).

Not highjacking Beavah, just showing that your ground rules are so inconsistent with the scouting program that you no one can stay within your rules and show you a quality scouting program. BW

My apologies if this is tedious but I cannot think of another way to respond to so many points. No need to worry about my knowledge of previous threads. The scouting program is not based on the content of forum threads. 1) The level of participation has little to no effect. The Fist Class emphasis program is about having a purposeful, planned program, whether attendance is 65, 85 or 100% has little effect on the plan since skills are not just covered once, nor must all learning take place during 15 minutes a week. 2) It is the unit's plan, they can plan whatever level of activity the families will support. The BSA program says that scouts should have an outdoor activity "at least" once a month, not "only" once a month. In addition, the patrol is not limited to only Troop level activities and may choose to have their own patrol activities as well. 3) So what? Are you saying that advancement cannot take place in some locales because they have different weather? I do not see the logic in that. 4) What may or may not have been discussed on a thread is irrelevant to the fact that there are no "sign-off levels in the BSA advancement program. Never have been! 5) You speak of teaching in scouting as if it had a rigid time period, perhaps 12-15 minutes. Teaching is process of sharing information that does not end even once the learner has learned. There is no "getting it the first time" you support the learning until they learn, and then you support the retention of what they have learned. 6) The Uniform method is not about uniform inspections. The intent of the scouting program Methods is that you employ as many applicable methods as possible in everything you do. Again, it is a layered application you do not use one Method and then drop it and pick up another. When the New Scout Patrol does an in-city hike to a fire station for a first aid class we introduce basic map and compass, practice hiking safety rules, learn first aid skills, we do nature identification, and we employ all eight methods of Scouting, most simultaneously. 7) If you re-read my posts, you will see I mention that the First Class Emphasis Program is tied to the New Scout Patrol. 8) Done with recruiting season? I have no idea what that is. This is not like duck hunting where you only have a certain period to recruit. A good program draws youth. When they arrive is of no consequence. Often times we have picked up Webelos who decided not to move into scouting, only to be coaxed back in by a New Scout after they share how fun the program is. I would always recommend you leave a spot in the New Scout Patrol for the friend that someone will bring in to join him. 9) Your real world is what you choose to make it. You can have a program plan the teaches and retains New Scouts or you can choose a world where you do not. Nothing says that because some choose not to use this effective program element that others cannot choose to use it. So far, the only people to speak against it are those who have not used it. The ones that have used it do not seem to be saying anything negative about it or its results. "In my experience I've never yet seen a troop that either wanted to or was able to implement 'em as designed,..." If a carpenter does not know how to use his tools is that the tool's responsibility, or the carpenter's? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Who is a Senior Patrol Leader "in charge" of? How would you answer that question? The same could be asked regarding a Crew President or a Ship's Boatswain.

Jblake is right on track with the style and methods of leadership taught in the BSA program. I am curious Eagle 309, when you say the the Scouts won't listen to the SPL, can you give an example of what he is saying and who is he saying it to? Good cop/bad cop is a TV show cliche not a method of leadership, and certainly not anything ever taught in Scouting. Of course most young people today do not know how to lead, that is why the scoutmaster is charged with coaching and mentoring junior leaders. Training, trusting, and providing real leadership opportunities is to youth is what separates Scouting from other youth activities. Teaching scouts they will be punished if they do not do as they are told is not how you develop leadership, it is how you train dictators. As far as what to suggest to him, let me first ask what leadership training have you and the SPL experienced so far? (This message has been edited by Bob White)