Bob White

Why do you believe families left one pack for the other? What is it doing better than the pack you are trying to save?

Encourage the car owners to take the cars away from them and find BETTER DRIVERS!

"What I really want to know is what experienced scouters got out of the program? I get something new out of every Wood Badge I participate in. New program ideas, new resources, new presentation ideas, new friends. new ways to interlace skills. Plus the fun of sharing the scouting program with people looking to learn and grow. But you will find each persons experiences different, and what you get out of it will be unique to your needs and you contributions.

No one said the training had to be done the same only that all the same information had to be shared. So if we had 1 training team just for Scoutmaster training that would likely solve the consistency problem, and if they spend all day on Thursday doing NLE and Scoutmaster Specific and then the IOLS on Friday thru Sunday and then traveled on Monday and Tuesday taking Wednesday to set up camp, they could get to all 308 Councils in just under 6 years providing they never took any holidays off. Well that is one more plan to consider. "So, how would I do it? Require mandatory training at the local level for all registered adult leaders with materials supplied from National. But isn't that what we do now??? And yet not all leaders are not trained or resieving the same information even though every district and council has the exact same syllabus! How is that possible? What would have to change for the current training system that is in place to get the same information to every participant?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not anticipate buying the new version when it comes out unless required for staff positions at the National Jamboree.

It is the Boy Scouts of AMERICA. the Flag emblem on the sleeve represents the Natiional affiliation and has never been an optional element of the BSA official uniform.

It's Me, I am not aware of what your scouting background is but in the Scoutmaster basic training it is shown how learning practicing and testing can take place in every aspect of the Troop meeting program even ion ceremonies. Take a look at Tenderfoot requirement#6 and tell me if that could be worked into an opening or closing ceremony? How about Tenderfoot requirement #8. What about Second Class #3? What about parts of First Class 7B and all of 7C. And those are just advancement opportunities available by participating in openings and closings. You should be able to take any skill and make a game or competion for teaching, practicing, or testing it. Beavah, I'm must admit I am somewhat surprised by your comments on this issue. It seems you are saying that if we are teaching camping skills one month we can never teach first aid in another. Or that you don'y understand that you teach one skill and provide practice or application opprotunities for another on the same day or even in the same month. "Well, I've been around a while, and I can't say that I've ever seen an opening or closing that taught "campout planning," What an unusual comment for someone of your tenure. Just because an opening doesn't teach camp planning does not mean it can't teach or test other requirements? (see above text regarding other requirements that can be done during meeting ceremonies). I think =you suggestion of the "Yah, I can imagine a very fun meeting where in da middle of the opening, a guy in a ski mask comes in, opens fire with a plastic gun and some plastic throwin' knives, and all the PL's and SPL end up lyin' on da floor bleeding from moulage wounds." I find a comment like that far more disturbing than unusual. I am surprised that you would classify that as a fun activity for a Scouting program. I am not sure why you are hung up on the pack backing requirement. Would you prefer that not be taught at some point? Or would you teach it AFTER they start going camping?

Fine if we are to use the roan example lets remember that vehicle (the unit) does not belong to the driver, he is being allowed behind the wheel at the discretion of the owner (the CO) and road he travels was designed build and owned by another (the BSA) and the driver agredd in writing by his or her own signiture to obey every traffic law and follow the road the designers laid out in the manner they prescribed. Yes John, When you agreed to follow the rules you agreed to follow ALL the rules. The Council is both an independent corportation and the local legal agent of the BSA with its own policies and procedures which are different in somne ways from those that the COs and volunteers are responsible for and to. BW

Interesting Beavah, However, that does not explain how you would get consistent program information and course content. What is your solution to that? What kind of timeline do you anticipate to have these training resources ready to go in 308 individual councils and 2,200 district communities? To you plan on having the National office pay the fees for development and delivery of the training or will the local volunteers pay the fees for trainers? John, YP is already on line, as is Fast Start, and Roundtable is already available for any volunteer to attend. But none of those are BASIC training components all are "supplementary" training components. How would you deliver basic training so that all 6 thousand plus got the same program info? Putting on line, like having a video or DVD presentation, certainly controls content continuity, butis the difference between that and being read to? What about human interaction, Q&A opportunitues, how will you resolve these issues? The current SM/ Assistant SM course is 7 hours do you the on-line version taking this long as well? And agian you are faced with the outdoor skills phase of leaders training is that to be on-line as well? If not how do you control the the content from one course to another? Thanks for your input. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That to is at the discretion of the Scoutmaster. The scout program does not address that issue other than giving the SM the authority to make the decision and maintain a list of those approved.

My apologies for that wording it was not representative of me. I would not place a 15 year old in a NSP uless there were enough scouits of his age to create a patrol. A Scout at that age as I suggested no doubt would be comming in because of a friend in the troop and I would expect him to join that patrol. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Barry What I said was that the Scout master slects who can approve advancement requirements and under what conditions. An example given in the Scoutmmaster handbook is that the Scoutmaster could approve the Troop Guide to approve T-1C requiremenst for the New Scout Patrol. It is up to the Scoutmaster who he selects and under what circumstances. AS a Scoutmaster I approved some Patrol LEaders to approve certain advancement requirements within their Patrol and others could not. That is how the program is designed. BW

Source You say that since it was very cold the Scoutmaster asked the scouts to vote on participating. Why do you suppose he did that? It would seem to me if he "wanted to be the ruler" he would have just said "we are not going". Why do you suppose he asked the scouts to guve their opinion in the form of a vote?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

While it may be 90 days old unless you believe that the posters have since changed their leadership philosophies it would still seem a valid topic for discussion should anyone else choose to participate.

beavah, You are suggesting taht there are no teaching or advancement opprotunities to be done while participating in opening or closing ceremonies? Are you suggesting that there are not games that can be used to teach practice, test, or provide discovery moments for learning? How to do those very things are part the Scoutmaster Assistant Scoutmaster Bsic training course! Sure it may take you awhile to personalize your many packs. But if you check out the Boy Scout Handbook it can teach you some basic information of common characteristics for packing that may help you, and it gives you a handy packing list for personal, patrol, and troop gear. All the BASIC information that the Scout needs to learn at this entry level in scouting is the information in his handbook. Understanding and usie of the Handbook information is what is required for his advancement, not knowledge of your challenges packing your own gear. Isn't that right? BW

John, Now that you have outlined the criteria, please descbribe the training vehicle that could do those things. I totally agree with your first point that a lot depends on the selection of quality people as leaders. Thanks BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scoutnut is correct. The Scoutmaster is responsible for designating, and maintaining a list, of those approved to sign-off on advancement requirements and at what level. For instance the Troop Guide might be approved to sign Tenderfoot to First Class requirements but only for members of the New Scout Patrol.

My personal experience is that rarely does a boy join a Boy Scout Troop after age 12. The few that do rarely stay because their only reason to join was to take part in the outdoor activity with a friend in the troop. They have no interest in the other aspects of the program and quickly lose enthusiasm. However if I did have a 14 or 15 year old join I would put them in a patrol made of scouts of similar age and interest as recommended by the BSA program. BW

The divisions in scouting have always been age based, and adults have always been involved in training at the troop level since the introduction of Scout troops. I do not see how this suddenly makes Boy Scouting more like Cub Scouting?

Thanks John, Okay, lets look at some of the misconceptions I mentioned. Let's take these four areas first. You are correct that there are 4 areas of BSA policy that effect unit operation. There are other areas of policy that do not effect unit operation, for instance employment policies. The four areas of BSA policies that do effect unit operation are; Advancement, Membership, Safety, and Uniforming. Youth protection is a safety issue. Trademark protection is not a unit operation issue it only effects individual or businesses offering products or services using the trademarked or copyright properties of the BSA. As far as guessing what I think about the Charter Organization relationship to the BSA, I ask that you simply ask what I think rather than make innacurrate statements of what I think. I have no 'opinion' on the matter. The school of thought I subscribe to are that facts of the matter as explained by the BSA. The BSA "charter concept" makes the charter organization the owner of the unit, but the BSA retains the ownership of the program. The two organizqation contract annually through a document called the Shared Responsibilities Agreement which outlines the roles and responsibilities of each organization. The charter organization by signature of its Institutional Head agrees to follow the program, policies and procedures of the BSA. This includes acceptint the responsibility to select leader for the unit that will do the same. The unit's leaders all sign BSA membership application forms in which by their signature they contract with the BSA (and I quote) "I agree to comply with the Charter and Bylaws, and the rules and regulations, of the Boy Scouts of America and the local council. So what is the the policing agent for the policies of the BSA regarding unit leaders? It is the individual integrity of the volunteers selected and by the chartering organizations. Each is only as good as their name. Is the BSa /Co relationship similar to a franchise? Yes in many ways. Let's consider how. McDonalds owns the name image and controls the product. Each store can be coiunted on and is expected to deliver the same product at the same quality. To that end the Corporate office makes identical and specific training available to every employee. The quality of that employee rests in the hands of the franchise owners who is rfesponsible for choosing their own workers. Is there flexibility. Yes, not every store is identical in the decor of its dining room, and not every customer comes in to get the same kind of meal. But each store using the same products is capbale of meeting each customers needs at the same expected quality from their menu. Now let's look at the program itself. Is the BSA program flexible. Yes, to a very large degree in that the activities of the program are flexible, but not the Aims, Methods, and Mission. Not all units meet in the same size or decor for their meeting rooms, not all go to the same camps, not all have the same program calendar. But each should be delivering the various prgram elements in the samew way at a reasonable similar quality. Flexible it seems in some peoples minds means that as long as you are the scoutleader you can do what you want and call it scouting. That simply is not the case. Even in its flexibility there are still right way and wrong ways to do things according to the program. A program by definition has a recognized structure and common elements and practices. Simply doing what you want to do in a Scout uniform does not make it a Scouting program. Commissioner service: The role of commissioner is to provide service and support to Scouting units with the specific goal of "insuring that every eligible youth has the opportunity to participate in a "quality" Scouting program." That is a very broad fresonsibility which involves differing types of commissioning at nearly every level of scouting. Outside of paid professionals, only Commissioners where the "wreath of service" on their uniforms. This represents that the commissioner is charged with representing the official program, policies, and procedures of the BSA. As we know just from posts by some current and former commissioners on this forum that there are those who do not know and or do not support those elements. Part of the problem that I have observed is the the number of trained commissioners is even lower than the number of trained unit volunteers, so we truly have a case of the unknowing leading the unwilling. Many commissioners are placed in that position based on tenure rather than on actual use or knowledge of the scouting program at any level. I am aware of a couple of cases where fellows were moved into a unit commissioner position at the request of the unit just to get them out of their hair. Then what happens is this "commissioner" gets other units assigned to them and is now sharing their poor scouting habits and techniques with units who do not realize this person's lack of abilities. Selecting the right people and training them properly solves pretty much all of Scoutings problems. So what actual authority does the Commissioner have? Compare them to a baseball unpire. Three strikes and the batter is out. The Umpire evaluates the play and informs the player, but what oif the player does not want to leave the plate? Does the unpire have the authority to remove him? Can the umpire fine him? NO. So what can he do. He turns to the manager of the team and says "control your player". It is up to the teanm amnagement to liove up to their agreement to follow the game ands its rules or a higher authority can becom involved and as one poster would say "there could be consequences! When a unit or leader is not following the game of scouting the commissioner evaluates the game and informs the players of how to play correctly. If they refuse he or she goes to the charter organization that owns the team and says "yiou need to control your players. You agreed to follow the program, and they aren't doin" that. how can I help you gain back a quality scouting program" It might be the commissioner is required to coach or mentor, it might mean bringing in the training resources of the district,it might be helping the CO recruit better players.

Scoutldr, Please share your plan for getting 61,600 people available at the same time at locations across the country with the required technological resources needed to achieve that. With approx 308 councils (if we were to do this on a council level) we would need a meeting place for an average of 200 people each. of course that will vary. In some councils you may only have 14 people where in other councils you could have over 600 based on the average of new units per district. Are you confident that such facilities will exist in every Council? Are you aware of any volunteer organization who has been able to complete an undertaking of that magnitude? What would you estimate the cost per person to be as compared to the current cost of training at the basic level? If only 2% of the participants asked a question at an average of 2 minutes for the question to be asked and answered, the Q&A session alone would take over 41 hours. Do we plan this as a marathon weekend course? or should it be a week long so that breaks could be allowed for meals? Crew21_Adv, Are you aware of the uproar caused when programs such as Youth Protection and Safe Swim Defense were put on line? I agree that recording all training is one way to guarantee consistent information. Please tell me how the Q&A would be handled. It will be interesting to here how others percieve the effectiveness of the training if there were no face to face instruction? Plus, this has not resolved the basic training issue since we still have the outdoor trainig to cover. Should that be done as a purely video presentation as well? Are you confident that 100% of the 61,600 volunteers have access to a CD or DVD player? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

But Philt was not discussing the National figures he was telling you the recent, specific, results of the local program where he serves.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That is very tru OGE, but bear i mind there are very few BSA training syllabus passages that say "Read this to the participant". The actual BSA training, incorporates, discussion questions, vidoe, games, handouts, PowerPoint etc. Even if a novice presenter followed the directions given the in the presenter instruction there would be very little if any information "Read' to the participant". The information on this and how to use the syllabus to deliver an interesting presentation is hwat the BSA 500/ Training Develepment course is all about (if the trainers for that follow the syllabus )

Participation in any scout event is voluntary. Parents and leaders need to make the decision for their children and the Scouts they serve whether or not to participate, based on their own judgement and their evalution of the Scouts skills, abilities, and preparedness (as well as their evaluation of the event). Rescheduling events is not always easy due to the amount of activities going on in a council/district calendar or events. But just because there may be no opportunity to reschedule does not mean that the scouts should go, or must go. It is your choice, you should never feel bad about making a decision you feel is in the best interest of your child's healsth or welfare.

In the year 2007 8,800 new units were started in the three traditional programs of the BSA. Let's average 7 adults leaders per unit for 61,600 adults spread out through over 2,200 districts nation wide. If you were given the task of getting basic training to all 61,600, so that you could reasonable insure that no matter where they were each got the same program information in an effective learning format, how would you do it?