Bob White

If this was ever a secret it was poorly kept. When you look at the troop and see it is lead by voluntters, you see the district program is run by volunteers, you see that the council program is run by volunteers, what leads people to believe the structure stopped there? When was the last time you asked anyone? Show of hands. How many people ever asked their local professional to explain the organization of Scouting beyond the part you can see in your council?

What changed was the depth of available staffers who were trained in WB21. To think these rules were made by pros is incorrect. These rules were determined largely by the volunteers who served on the committees that developed WB21. Scouters need to remember back to their NLE training. The national council like our own local councils is made primarily made of volunteers currently in unit positions or with a background in unit scouting. Even youth members sit on these committees. To think that the BSA program is developed by suits with no unit experience is really just an emotional and ill-informed rant. The role of the professional staff at National is to implement the decisions made by these committees. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Its a good rant Eamonn and I share it with you. You are right that people who steer power boats seem to get more attention than the sailors who harness the wind. You are also correct that many councils give little attention to Venturing or Sea Scouting. I can explain why. In our council for example there are over 13,000 scout families. 21 are Sea Scouts, there is just no way that a counil is going to put resources into a program that represents such a small part of its population. Add Venturing and you still aren't looking at a very large number. So we are looking at it from the Unit/Charter Organizartion relationship view. When we wanted attention we didn't wait for the CO to notice us, We provided willing service to the CO without needing to be asked until they could not help but notice us. We are doing the same thing with our council and it is working. There are things we can offer our council that no other unit can. We have a look and a program unlike anything else in our council. Eventuallly a mutually beneficial relationship will form from that. As for finances and resources. One of the best friends of the ship we have was gained one very windy day when the scouts decided to hang around the harbor and when incoming boats arrived they rushed over to the slip and stood at parade rest waiting for the boats to approach and then caught the docking lines from the boaters and smartly guided the boats into the slips and tied them off. Now, every so often we find that money has been added to out account by a club member out of appreciation for our assistance. Our work wit the race committees on the safety boats as well as race participants has resulted in a lot of assistance with our repair needs. Here are some things we have learned with maintenance that may help you. Don't accept every boat you are offered. If it is going to cost too much to repair don't take it. Lots of boaters have spare parts they do not need or may never use. Keep a needs list posted where other boaters can see it, you will likely get parts donated. Keep up with regular maintenance, Cover your sails when not in use, keep the hulls undercoated as needed, wash the boats regularly, make sure equipment is clean and dry before storage, Take care of your lines, coil them properly and store them where they will not get wet. Teach the scouts how to do fiberglass and epoxy repairs. Some of our boats look better at a distance, but they are sturdy and safe. We have learned that a ugly boat sailed well is preferred over a handsome boat sailed badly. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You missed jblakes boat there Beavah, he did not say that that my questions were abrasive in fact he complimented them. You might read his posts again. He and I are both advocating talking with the scout and not ordering him around. I never told the scout what to do, I asked him what he thought he should do, and what his plan was, and I supported his decisions. When he needed guiding I guided without telling, I was willing to accept his answers and when needed I went with him and helped him with the task. When he has a patrol leader who needs help I would expect him to coach him. If he discovers the PL does not know how to do the job, I would anticipate the SPL working next to him as I did in the example, and as Jblake also supported. Are there levels in the leadership style of coaching? As far as training to clean a cabin, you do get that this was a fictional situation simply used as a vehicle to show the difference in leadership styles. There really isn't a cabin with a dirty stove. Let's not throw away the First Class Emphsis program or the Styles of Leadership over your confusion about a non-existent SPL in an invisible cabin.

Perhaps, but that has no relevance to the situation. What he knows is from a course that is no longer taught. It's not that he does not have good skills, it's just that this is not the same course. To teach it he would need to ge trained in it. The training is to attend the course as a participant.

I believe national figures have identified the largest loss in cubs is during the first year as Tiger and during the fourth and fifth year as Webelos, not as Bears. I wouldn't say cubbing was difficult but a Den leader is certainly the hardest working person in scouting. And I also agree that solving the membership loss in Cubbing would help Troop membership a lot. Although it would have no effect on Venturing. But even in Cubbing the problem is leaders selection and training quality at the local level. The resources available for a Den Leader are excellent, the training is fun and thorough WHEN the syllabus is followed. The problem in Tigers is that we put our least experienced leaders with our newest scouts. I don't see how we can expect that to succeed. In Webelos, because many councils roll all the training into one ball, we have Webelos leaders who face a very different program then they have practiced for the past three years and they are supposed to remember training that for this new den program that they have not seen in three years. So they end up running Webelos like a Cub Den rather than as a transitional program to Boy Scouting. Kids don't want to be cub Scouts for 5 years, they need a taste of what is ahead in Scouting. So again getting back to the thread topic, If we don't use the current training mechanism then what do we use? If trainers won't follow this syllabus what one will they follow? And take time to think through the actual lgoic of your plan. You can't have do out door training with recorded programs. Scout training is hands on and active. We train leaders that effective teaching and learning require hands o activities and then posters ay we should teach that withrecording messages. That makes no sense. You cannot take Q%A from a class of 61,000 people. The current mechanism allows for large group learning, small group learning, or personal coaching. every council has identical resources and syllabi, all they need is to have trainers who follow the plan they are given. No mechanism will be perfect, but having good trainers in a room with properly selected leaders is still the best way to teach this program. Mandatory training has failed. A lot of councils have gone to it and the number of trained leaders in the program should be unacceptable to all of us. Combine with the number of "trained" leaders who do not follow the training it should be unacceptable to parents. So what percentage of direct contact youth do you think there are trained in the BSA?

OOOH good guess CalicoPenn but I'm afraid that Starved Rock is an incorrect answer, but thanks for playing...Please enjoy the lovely home version of our game...Johnny who is our next contestant please. Not sure what concessions this lodge could hope to use to raise those kinds of funds. The room rates are set by the state as I would bet the food costs are as well arent they? No real complaints about the place just an observation that the place is falling apart. There were three business groups meeting there the day I was there and the facilities were at capacity, so lack of use did not seem to be a problem nor was it mentioned as a cause by the management.

Hi T164Scoutmaster When you took Wood Badge the first time, did you have an expectation that you would be able to be a staff member BEFORE you took the course as a participant? Of course not. Why then would you expect to be able to staff Wood Badge for the 21st Century BEFORE you took the course as a participant. It is no different a situation. The reason your previous staffing exerience does not count toward this one is that they are not the same course...AT ALL. The materials and some concepts are totally different or repacked. Many new elemmnets have been added and many old ones dropped. It is simply not the same program. The only reason that in the first one or two courses your council did they probably used Staff from the previous Wood Badge programs, was that there were no Scouters who had participated in the new course yet to draw from fir staff. But its been almost 8 years now and most councils have a lot of WB21 staff and participants to recruit from who, unlike you with the old course, have a knowledge and experience with the content and methods of the current course. I am glad to hear you support training, perhaps you would consider attending the new Wood Badge course as a participant so that you can be a better trainin resource for the scouters you train, whether you serve on staff for WB again or not. BW

We just had our first event committee meeting this weekend. We took about 90 minutes and put together a rough agenda, identified the activities we wanted to include chose assignments for the next meeting and then reviewed what we had just done as a way to train the youth leaders on the planning prosess for an event this size. This would be similar to planning a very large camporee and the scouts on the committee have very little experience a plan that size, so we got this one started and by the thirdd meeting they will take over. The event will start on Friday evening and run till 4:30PM on Sunday. We are taking the rest of this month and February to identify instructors, round up lifeguards and medical crew, finalize the invitations, secure the resources, and set the budget. At the end of February we have our next training academy and the committee will meet that weekend to report on what they have done. We will finalize the invitation kit to the units to send in March. We will send a welcome letter to our instructors and invite them to an orientation meeting in April when they will train them on how we would like the activities to function, choose their program areas, and give them a gift for volunteering. By July we will have an idea of enrollment and class sizes, and adjust program areas as needed. Some misc. info; To get them on the water early we are feeding them so that they do not have to bring as much gear. Breakfast will be in the same location so that we can communicate any program news. Lunches will be sack lunches on the go in their program areas. Dinner Saturday will be a cook out. We don't have room to camp everyone but there is a city campground that was a Boy Scout camp many years ago, just a few miles up the road. so they can camp there if they choose, or simply drive in each day and stay at home. We will have a beach party welcome on Friday night. Every person attending must already have passed the 1st Class Swim Test or equivalent. We have a list of personal gear for each person to bring in a day pack (suntan lotion, hat, swim suit, water bottle, change of clothes, etc.) and we are asking for everyone who can to bring their own Type II or III PFD. (We will have a suply available for the others) We estimate the cost to be around $30 each but as I say that hasn't been solidified yet. Once the invitation kit is done I will send you a copy, it will have an agenda with it as well. BW

Not everyone has the skills and characteristics to be an effective scout leader, just as not everyone has the skills and charcteristics to any job you can think of. That is why comanies list skills and abilities needed to do a job, and that is why theyare interviewed BEFORE they hired. When someone gets o the job and the employer realizes they are not effective at it, they normally either send him to training, or to unemployment. Otherwise the company suffers. You can select and train the unit leaders and replace those who do not or cannot follow the program, or you can keep them and take the program you get. But itis unreasonable to expect the BSA to change theior program in order to accomodate a poor leader that you are unwilling to change. You got this big barrel of apples. Common sense tells you not all are ripe. Do you just reach in and take whatever you get, or do you look at your choices first and make the decision to not choose a rotten one. Most leaders today were recuited when someone at a scout meeting said..."we need somebody to volunteer do this job or else.....if you are willingto do it raise your hand, or see me after the meeting" You need someone capable of doing the job not anybody who is willing to take the position. And that is usually what they get...anybody. Sometimes when they reach into the barrel like this they get a good one, but the odds are against them. Rather than taking any apple they should be choosing the right apple. Getting back to the TLT, it is the best program I have seen so far. I have taught it, and I have taught others how to use it. It is better than the last one overall, although the last one was more fun, I think the lessons in this one have greater clarity and are easier for the scouts to understand. the last one was better than the version before that, and I am willing to bet that the next one will be an improvement over the one we have now.

Page 11 of the training syllabus. BW

Given your familiarity with Hillcourt I would be interested in how you train Patrol Leaders to conduct their own Patrol Meetings, Patrol Hikes, and Patrol Campouts (if only 300 feet away) and how that figures into getting Scouts from Tenderfoot to First Class in a year. Happy to oblige. First, and I hope this point can finally be understood so that it can stop being repeated..."The goal is not to get scouts to First Class in a year. the goal is to have a planned program that teaches, practices and offers scouts opportunities to apply the skills in 12 to 14 months." There is a First Class First Year Tracking sheet to record scouts individual progress, but do not confuse that that with the program plan. As a troop leader we camped by patrol not as a troop. Remember that a troop is not divided into patrols, Patrols come together to form the troop. The Troop Guide camped with the New Scout Patrol at first, for the first few campouts two adults camped in the site as well but were only there at night and they spent the day withthe adult leaders and ate with the other adult leaders. Once the Troop Guide saw that the Scouts could set camp on their own and were comfortable at night, he would stop camping with the NSP and camp with the Venture Patrol, he started the program year cooking and eating with the NSP and as their skills improved he would spend less meal time with them. Eventually his roll was one of instructor and mentor to each scout as they performed in the PL position. Once all of the Scouts had learned and showed an understanding of the the basics of scouting skils he withdrew completely. Experienced and Venture Patrol Leaders were trained both formally and informally through the BSA junior leader training programs, and through individual mentoring and coaching primarily by the SPL, but mostly patrol leader training was done during PLCs by the Senior Patrol Leader or troop instructors in small easy to digest portions. We did a lot of patrol activities where the more experienced patrols did trips outside of the troop events. Depending on the skill level of the patrol and the type of trip and location, the patrols either had a pair of adult leaders nearby but outside the patrol site, or with no adult at all. As you recognize that is not only how the scout program has been designed historically but is in fact the way it is still designed today. The only exception being the addition of the New Scout Patrol (but that has now been around for many years). But you need to recall from your studies of B-P that he never expected the program to always stay the same. He saw it as a flexible teaching system that would evolve with changes in society, The world that B-P first introduced Scouting to is much different then life in the US today. B-P understood that and gave us a great basic philosophy of how to develop character in young people. The Aims and Methods that are supported and taught by the BSA are nearly identical to those of Hillcourt's and Baden-Powell's, the problem is that very few units have leaders that actuall take and accept the training, or follow through on it. Dodge ball might be OK if played patrol against patrol. Unfortunately, in most cases patrols are mixed or divided in order to create "equal sides". This as you know is counter productive to the Patrol Method and to patrol team development. B-P and Hillcourts philosophies were that you worked, played, competed, and camped as independent patrols under youth leadership, and that is still what is taught today. Even B-P nad Hillcourt taught with a plan. Your history lessons are interesting at times, but bear in mind we live and lead in today's world of the BSA and not in yesterday's world of scouting in the UK (no offense to your heritage Eamonn). While there truly is very little difference between the two in the way of methods, most scouters seem not to know or follow either program, which explains the annual loss of units and scouts. Would you not find greater value in helping explain to leaders the ways that the actual current program supports the philoshies and methods of B-P and how to continue to get his results by using the current program. You cannot expect to drive a car forward very well by only looking through a rear view mirror. For instance B-P taught skills by creating chalenges for the scouts to overcome. This acted as both a way to practice and apply known skills as well as a way to create a need for learning when the skills were unkown to the scout. There is no reason why troops should not be using that same challenge type of activity today. That method is still supported by the BSA program and yet most units do not do that. I cannot tell you the number of units I visit that start the meeting with "tonight we are going to work on requirements 7a through 9c of the blah blah blah blah blah... I disagree with posters who argue that is the youth that have changed. I have watched both youth and adults entering the program for the past 30 years it seems to me that it is how and why adults are being selected to be unit leaders that has changed. I think B-P would have no problem with the First Class emphasis Program, knowing that it was only to give the scouts a good foundation of baisc skills for which they can build upon for the next 7 years of scouting and beyond. BW

Nicely done jblake47! You and Eamonn make some excellent points.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Certainly cooking by patrol offers more opportunity to teach practice and apply not only aspects the patrol method but the Leadership Development method, and it provides more opportunities for advancement. I have often heard some scouters say that they use the dining hall because it is faster and gives the scouts more program time. That usually turns out to be more perception than fact. A lot also depends on the camp, there is not always an option anymore. Many camps have gone to a strictly dining hall format, mainly for cost reasons.

Please, the message is not about how to clean a cabin, it is about how to lead without always "telling", and how to not create a leadership environment based on "telling". Look at how much more polite the SPL was when I talked to him as opposed when you talked to him. I would guess that you wrote based on your experience just as I wrote based on mine. In my case the SPL was courteous because I was courteous to him. Scouts tend to reflect the leadership styles they see modeled by their leaders.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Would a CO select such a person? In the real world it probably isn't the CO who is doing the selecting. What you seem to miss is that SOMEBODY selected and approved the Scoutmaster, and if they picked someone who did not have the tools...well then they got what they deserved. Don't think the BSA should have to change the training just because units make poor choices. Instead the BSA puts out training to teach the COs how to make good choices. If the local units choose not to follow those practices either then again they will end up with the leaders and program they deserve. Yes, a lot of training evolution is just minor changes over previous methods, but the same can be said of almost any product or service. The auto industry didn't go from the Model-T to the Corvette overnight, it was a series of small changes. Training is no different. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

We started with a Venturing crew of 5 Scouts that wanted to learn to sail. So we did some investigation and made the switch to Sea Scouts. We started by traveling three and half hours to visit another Sea Scout ship on the Great Lakes that was sponsored by a Yacht Club. We trained with them and borrowed their boats. Next went in search of a chartering organization that had the resources to support the program the Scouts were looking for. We found a Yacht club, that we thought would work, primarily because of meeting space and access to water. The Skipper got a membership and we put a borrowed boat from the other Ship into a slip with the intentions of showing up every weekend to work on it and hopefully be seen by the club members. Instead our scouts kept getting borrowed by other membeers to help with their boats on racing crews, cleaning boats, assiting with maintenance. After about 8 weeks of this the Commodore of the club sat down with three of us adults leaders and asked about these 5 guys in Sea Scout t-shirts that have been helping everyone around the club. We gave him a history on Sea Scouting and he was impressed on the how many goals the Club shared with the program. It turns out they had been trying to start a youth group for a few years with no luck and maybe the Sea Scouts could be the remedy. I was assigned by the Skipper to become the unit organizer, and working with the Bridge at the Club we formed a committee, selected the CR/CC trained the committee, recruited a couple more leaders and trained them. From our arrival at the club to the charter signing took about 8 months. Through existing club resources and several donations from local boaters we now have over two dozen sail boats we either own or have use of. Plus a few power boats, but we mostly sail. Our fleet ranges from small racing dingys to 21ft day cruisers. The improved access to to the water has drawn a number of new members (now 16 registered), and the Club has a goal for us to double in size this year. We host other Sea Scouts groups to boat with us and to join our training academies that we hold over the winter months. During sailing season (April through September) we are on the water every Saturday and Sunday. This August we are working on a 'Weekend on the Water' event that will give local Boy Scout, Venturing and Girl Scout units instruction in small boat handling, sailing, motorboating, water skiing, snorkeling, fishing, flyfishing, discover SCUBA, and other water activity related skills. The Scouts are also active in Club acting as greeters, and staff for various club events. The clubs race committee is now working with us to host a Sea Scout regatta later this season. The members of the Club could not be nicer to the scouts. All in all life on the water is good. We have now been asked by other local councils to come train local volunteers on how to start Ships. The core element in my opinion is to have the right CO for the program and train EVERYBODY. As for the boats and finances, those are program driven. Build a good program and the resources will become available. Love to have you come visit. BW

Hi Ranger As far as the inaccuracies of my statements; If you do not like the comment regarding the park finances feel free to insult the park employees who told me. I shared what they shared with me. Is it not a Congress with a Democratic majority? Blame the media for running the polls results that Bush was more popular than Pelosi. if that is inaccurate they are not my polls. As for my unit leadership experience, I have been an active unit leader every year since 1976, how about you? It seems arrogance exists in your post as well.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

So the program knowledge of the program leader has no effect on program quality? Interesting. If the rates of scouts leaving had not increased greater than the rate of scouts joining you might have a bit more credibility in your theory. But that is not the case. So what do you think the current percentage of trained leaders with direct youth contact is?

There's the problem Beavah, You have a handbook that has a Rank requirement on how to clean a cabin and no one else does. Do they grow a pretty good crop of Nits in your neck of the woods, cuz yer pikin' a pretty good crop here, eh. The situation I responded to was a small example of a common camp situation, and as I am sure you know the point was simply to show you can talk to a scout and get things done by asking nonabrasive questions rather than ordering kids around. And to show that you work through the organization chart. I spoke to the Senior patrol Leader, he talks to the PLs and a PL offers to have his patrol or someone in it do the job. The reason is if I speak to the SPL that way, he will learn to talk to the PLs that way and they will learn to talk to the scouts in the patrol that way. But if you take the easy short cut and just tell a scout to 'git er done' then nobody learns anything, don'tcha know.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hot Desk think about what you wrote. Would hire a math teacher how couldn't teach math?

Not at all Beavah, this could easily be his first time as SPL at a cabin campout and this is a task he knows how to do but was never in the position of being responsible for seeing it gets done. He has lots of time to remember and my coaching allows it to be his discovery and not my ordering. Coaching is for anyone who needs it for that particular task in that particular situation. Telling was not needed, persuading was not called for since it was not something he needed convincing to do, and delegating was not appropriate until after he shows that he has a thorough grasp of the task. So coaching in this instance is the right choice. Do I "remember" Wood Badge for 21st Century??? Beavah ol buddy you have no idea :)

Since you are there in representation of the OA I would think it perfectly appropriate to where a Boy Scout uniform with the Arrow Sash.

There is a description of servant leadership in the Troop Leadership Training syllabus. After you read that read the "What is expected of me" sections of the Patrol Leader Handbook and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. Then recal the points of the Scout Law and the part of the Scout Oath when we promise to "Help other People at all times" You should be able to understand and to share a discussion with the scouts on the relationship and similarities of these elements. Compare the characteristics of helping the people you lead to be successful using the characteristics of servant leadership compared to ordering people around simply to accomplish your personal goals.

Its totally up to you. All the BSA asks is that whatever uniform you wear wear it correctly. You can represent yourself in one offic or the other but not both in the same uniform. Do not mix your silver loop covers with an ASM positition of responsibility emblem. Do not wear the council committee emblem with Red loop covers. Or wear the Council committee patch with troop numerals. If you are only going to wear one uniform it should only represent one job. I Hope this helps, BW (What is a troop insignia?)