Bob White

I am trying to show that delivering training to an organization the size of the BSA is a very difficut task. And while it is easy for some to crititicize the delivery mechanism, it is still the most feasible way at this point in time. Is it perfect? No, because it depends on individual integrity. Something that is difficult to control. But clearly the only way to improve on it is through the careful selction of both trainers and leaders. And that seems to be the weakest link. Units are obviously not populated by volunteers interested in learning the Scouting program or their specific role in it. Trainers do not always deliver the information completely. The Councils all have the exact same syllabi. They are designed to be delivered to any size group of participants. The problem is not in the training continuum or the course materilas. And no one has yet to offer a feasible alternative to the delivery mechanism. The solution it seems is to select responsible people rather than alter the training.

We all have heard this. I would like to think we all believe it. Many councils have even made basic training mandatory for direct youth contact leaders. So as Dr. Phil would say...How's that workin for ya? What do you suppose is the national percentage of direct contact leaders who have attended basic training? 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60% 70% more?

Good luck with the move Kudu, I know how fun they can be. My point was your post suggested that the two First Class wre equivalent but that B-P took more time. So in B-Ps time you had to be 14. If a 13 year old joined the troop could he have completed the requirements for 1st Class in a year. You didn't say. Another thing you didn't explain in your first post is that the two 1st Class ranks are related only in name. "Baden-Powell required that a First Class Scout be 14 years old, so if it had been in his nature to propose a First Class emphasis Program he might have called it "First Class in Three Years"! So what? They are unrelated.

The Venture Patrol and a Venturing Crew are two separate units Justin. If you want a Venture Patrol it is a patrol of Scouts 13 and older who are a patrol within the troop, you wear the same uniform and follow the same advancement program as the troop. The difference is that you have a more advanced activity program. Check out pages 39 and 40 of the Patrol Leaders Handbook. Have fun BW

Sorry Beavah but there is no such thing in Boy Scouting as the Hands-off leadership style, delegation is as distant as you get. I am saying that no matter how simple that task the SPL does not need to be "telling" scouts what to do. In fact the smaller and less important the task the LESS telling you want to do. The other styles interplay depending on the task and the skill and experience of who you lead.

"But if the Scout has medications and I suggest that for safe keeping he keeps it in my car and even if I do remind him "Isn't it time for you to take your meds?" And he toddles off to the car and takes them. I don't see this as the same thing." I used to agree with that until the troop I served gained a pharmacist as an ASM. Did you know that there are common medications that when stored at high temperatures such as those you can get inside a car at camp, change in composition and become lethal? And that others if stored to warm or too cold lose the potency? I didn't either until then. So even accidentally storing the meds incorrectly (like in a hot car) could make the scout more ill or even kill him. He was real serious about this. We no longer take responsibility for the storage or distribution of medication. Having a pharmacist come in to Roundtable to talk about this might be a good program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Justin Venture Patrols like any other element of scouting works great when done correctly. One thing you could do to put his mind at ease is to organize the Venture patrol as the source for Troop Guides and Instructors. Explain that a Venture Patrol can help to keep older scouts in the troop longer by having a separate more adventurous program to keep them interested. You could explian that while the new scouts are doing basic skills and the experienced patrols are applying those skills and learning more advanced skill, the older scouts need more challenging and adventurous activities than the others are ready for. Ask the scoutmaster to assign an assistant scoutmaster to the Venture patrol to help them get started planning there first adventure. Good Luck

Here is where we differ I guess jblake. You feel that saying to scout "the fireplace in the cabin we were staying needed to be cleaned out and swept." is less adult directed than asking the SPL what his pl;an is. I don't see how that is possible? I think the SM saying 'somebody ought to do this' is telling them what to do. Rather than talk to the PL or SPL, you went to a scout and he took it like it was suddenly his job. Note the snappy comeback you got. So what does he do now go to another scout and say, Mr Scoutmaster says somebody ought to shovel out the fireplace. I am not sure you are any closer to getting the job done. I went through the organization chart. I work through the SPL, the SPL through the PL, the PL through the scout(s) on the duty roster. I didn't tell him what he needed to do, I asked him what his plan was. I didn't get the snappy answer. By asking the youth leader "what's next on your plan" he understands that it's still his show and that he's just not doing the things I want to do or doing them when I want them done, he is following his plan. If that is condescending I have never had a scout answer as if it were. It's like... if it looks like rain, I don't tell the scouts to cover their firewood, I go have a chat with the SPL about some non essential stuff, like how's his mom and dad, then I excuse myself because it looks like it might rain and I need to cover my firewood. Next thing I knew the SPL was standing near a patrol leader saying, I gotta go it might rain and I need to make sure that I cover my firewood. If the patrol leader is on his game he might go back and ask his QM to grab some plastic so they can ...cover their firewood. Job done...if they want to do it...no telling. What if they don't do it, well if it rains some folks are going to have a fire in the morning sooner than others. But everybody learns to think about the weather and start to think ahead. No telling. Not even saying, "Somebody ought to get this firewood covered". If the SPL says to me "looks like rain", I'd say "I think your right, anything we should be taking care of before it does?" And he'd probably say he'll swing through the patrol sights and make sure the patrol leaders know, I say "that would be nice of you, thanks". Then I'd go make sure my firewood was covered. No telling him what to do, ask him what he thinks should be done. Ask questions, acknowledge good answers, set an example, that is better than telling them what to do.

A TEMPORARY drop in units certainly. A major loss in youth members, doubtful, they woiuld simply transfer to heathier units in most cases. A loss of leaders yes, but odds are a loss of untrained leaders. I would bet SE's understand that the CO's are vital to scouting, and have a better idea of who the unit belongs to than most unit leaders do. Remember Schiff It is a shame your CO wants you to just be something they tossa few dollars at and point to as theirs. It is also a shame tat no one in the unit has taken the time to explain their importance to the scouting program to them. You seem to want the Distric and council to manage the units and that is not their responsiblity. They are their to support the CO's Scouting unit, not to manage them for the COs. The example you give of the other unit is not an example of a problem with the BSA, it is another example of an untrained leader leading a program with no oversight from a committee or CO. That is not how the program is designed or taught. It is simply how it is being misused by that unit. "later I was very upset to see scout handbooks on a bar." What would you prefer be read at a bar?

Good for you infoscouter. The other thing I would suggest is to get three references from every person selected as required on the application and follow up on them. Ask about their knowledge of the candiates temperament, their behavior around Scout age children similar to those they will be working with, their trustfullness, their ability to work as a team member. And ask if there is any reason they would caution you about having this person as a scout leader. Our committee also has a requirement that the adult leaders be members of the charter organization, though not all COs require that.

Anybody who's givin' their hour a week per kid for somebody else's kids is doin' their best in my book. Gosh you would think that someone who was "doin' their best" would at least attend training for their job wouldn't you?

If he is storing and handing it he is distributing it. Many prescription medications common among youth today are controlled subtances that to even have them in your possession if you are not the person they are prescribed to their leagl care giver, is illegal, unless you are a licensed medical professional. Ask your wife. The G2SS is very strong in its recommendation that volunteers not take this responsibility on themselves. PS I do not know what ages of students you wife works with but she will know that children under the age of 13 that should not be taking aspirin regardless of a note or not.

We should be grateful for the free meeting space and drop the attitude "what's one more meeting" with our volunteers and benefactors. Personally, I would be embarrassed to be in a program where I felt that way. We are not beggars looking for a hand out or a warm room, and if you are willing to be treated that way then that is the status you will convey to the administration at your Charter Organization. We are a part of their youth education program, members of their organizations youth activities committee, we are not beggars, we do not "get what we can", we deserve the same resources and attention as any other committee in the charter organization's family of services. This is their Scout program, we work for them. And if your employer treats you like a beggar at the door then you should leave and find an organization who will give your efforts the respect it deserves, as they give any other program director. If you stay then you deserve the treatment you get. A charter organization that does not support their programs does not deserve those programs, and the leaders and the scouts should join a unit where they are supported as part of the CO's program. If you are not THEIR scout unit, then you are merely the Scout unit that meets THERE, and that is no way to develop a quality Scouting program. As for Quality Unit Award. You need to realize that it tracks the MINIMUM program you should be delivering in order to say you have a scouting program. EVERY unit should earn this award EVERY year or you have serious problems that need attention in the unit.

Kudu As it was you who made the comparison it seems only fair that you provide the missing facts. What was the joining age for B-Ps Boy Scouts at the program level where they could earn First Class? The advamcent steps to First Class in B-Ps UK program were considerably different than todays BSA advancement were they not? In fact other than their name they share little in common. Your post suggests that they are the same award but that B-P took a longer time to teach and test the same requirements, and that simply is not an accurate comparison. But without the information that you left out, many people reading your post would not realize that.

Scoutldr, What you fail to mention is...is there a licensed medical professional on staff who can legally store and distribute pharmeceuticals? Id so, then it is their property and event they can require they choose. If not...they are likely in violation of a number of state and feeral laws, as well as putting their "medical" staff in a very precarious legal and financial risk situation. So do they have a licensed medical professional on staff who can legally distribute pharmaceuticals?

I know you say you are not comparing reading a 2 hour course syllabus to a 6-day syllabus...but you did, and you are right, the two situations are not related in any way. WB21 is not an update, it is not a transitional course.of the previous course, It is an entirely different course. You could not hold a class to update people who have taken the previous course train them to teach this course, it woulkd take days, so the orientation is to take the enrire course. Just as you did with the previous version before you were considered for staff. No one is saying that the previous versions (and there have been more than 1) of Wood Badge have no value, like you I initially took an earlier course. The 11 skills of leadership served me very well in and out of scouting. But it is not the same course as WB for the 21st Century is. Just as I am sure that someday it wil be replaced by another version. At which time if we wanted to be on staff we will likely have to take that course as participants again as well. You were required to take the previous course as a participant before being considered for staff, you are being asked to do no more than that with this new course.

As an EMS it is doubtful that you have the legal standing to store or distribute prescription pharmaceuticals. Unless there is a licensed medical professional on staff with you, I would caution you against accepting that responsibility. the BSA Guide to Safe Scouting basically says that it strongly recommends that no volunteer accept this responsibility and that either the scout be responsible for his own medication or a parent or guardian must be present to manage it. Should you accept this responsibility you also accept the legal liability issues that go with it, and since the BSA has already suggested you not do it, to take that responsibility on you do so at your own risk. BW

Trustworthy is trustworthy, whether it is obeying a speed limit, following a commandment, following a policy at work, playing a game by the rules, or even following a BSA policy. Understanding that all these things are about agreeing to a code that governs a community is part of good citizenship and good leadership. They are dependent on the character of the individual. To think that you can ignore the rules you dislike and obey the rules you choose is unnacceptable in any civilized society. It is hypocritical to the Scout Oath and Law.

I absolutely agree with you that the key is that we do our best dScouter15. So let me ask you this. Is a leader who chooses to not attend training "doing his or her best"? Is a leader who takes training and knowingly doesn't follow the Methods or use the program as taught "Doing their best"? Is a trainer who chooses not to follo0w the syllabus even though they are told to.... "Doing his or her best". You are right there is no perfect way to use volunteers to reach over 100,000 other volunteers. So we must trust in each other to "do our best". Units need to trust that the leaders they select have the character and characteristics to do their job, Leaders need to trust that trainers will share the program information according to the training plan an all its content. Trainers need to trust in the training materials and follow the syllabus. The efectivenes of training and the delivery of the program rests in the character of the volunteers. But as we know very few direct contact leaders attebd even the basic training courses, and we know tht not all trainers are sharing the information in the syllabus, and we know not only from these posts but from observing the behavior of other "trained" leaders that only some follow the program, and they take that path intentionally. So many not trying to "do thier best" and who is hurt by that? Ed asks 'maybe we should blame the CO's?' It's not about blame it is about taking responsibility. The IH/ CRT amd CC of units need to take the responsibility for their Scouting program. They need to take their responsibility of selecting quality unit leaders seriously. They need to monitor to the units program and progress and actually administrate the program as they agreed to do in their charter with the BSA. No unit ever failed because of having a strong CO and trained leaders who followed the program. If any unit does not have those elements, then they either need to be working a plan to get there, or they are just waiting to collapse. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

And Scouts in Baden-Powell's time did not start until what age Kudu? And his advancement structure was not the same as the BSA today was it? Your post suggests an apples to apples comparison and it isn't.

Hard to say if it is a nation wide problem . Keep in mind there are 308 independent councils each with unique strengths and weaknesses. In our council there are two ship, very different in size and program scope. It cost us very little to get started. In some councils the boats (if any) are owned by the council. In ur case the boats are owned by the CO. We asked our council to help by taking ownership, with the Ship responsible for maintenance and slip costs. They declined. Our council is just beginning to see the value of our unit. We now have scouts from 75% of our districts, so we are affecting nearly everyone's membership numbers. As far as start up costs, uniforms are very inexpensive, but we stated off with just custom caps and t-shirts, and now have Dress uniforms as well. It is actually far less expensive then starting a troop. The Great Lakes has many, many, Sea Scout ships on its waters.

What age Cubs and what kind of camping? Have you picked a camping area yet? What resources or features does it have?

And Scouts in Baden-Powell's time did not start until what age Kudu? And his advancement structure was not the same as the BSA today was it? Your post suggests and app;es to apples comparison and it isn't.

There is no such thing as a policy everyone will follow. Policies like laws will only be followed by people who understand the responsibility of following rules. people who drive 30 miles an hour in a 30 MPH zone do not do it because they enjoy driving 30 or because they agree the speed should be 30. They do it because they accept the responsibility as a citizen to obey the laws that govern the community. You do not need to like the uniform to accept and follow the uniform policies. You just need to accept that as a member of a community that you respect the policies that govern the community. the same is true of rules at work or school. You cannot make a rule that everyone will follow because it is not about liking or disliking the rule it is the character of the individual that will determine if he respects his commumity or puts himself above it.

I am asking for less emotional outburts and a more thoughtful approach to see if there is a method that is as flexible as cost effective, as locally personalized, and as hands on as the current training approach for basic leadership training. Rather than "I don't like it" come uop with a feasible alternative.