Bob White

Barry Not sure if you caught this but there is no crew. I offered an option on how a troop that had reached capacity could expand its program by adding a Venturing crew that would attract some of the scouts at the older end of the scale, so that it would open up troop capacity at the new scout end so that youth could be added rather than sent to away. I would not expect EVERY 14-year and older scout to go to the Crew. But even if they did the roop would still have youth leadership as would the Venturing Crew. As long as the individual scout is getting what he needs and is enjoying the program, what difference does it make which program he is in? I have had 13 year old SPL's who did just fine. I do not see a problem with this option. Why do you?

Beavah Which bit of info from YP do you feel I misrepresented? In rereading my post the only thing I would rewrite is "Most States" rather than "all but a few" other than that my information matches the YP information.

No Barry, we can't let it go there, because you made some very erroneos satements concerning my posts. My goal in this case would be to have the charter organization expand their scouting program to allow them to serve more youth with quality scouting programs. If size in a the troop were aproblem one solution would be to expand the rpogram offer to allow the older scouts a program option that would not take from their scouting experience, and create room for growth at the other end of the scouting program. Nothing is taken away from the scouts. Whether they are 14 and in the troop or 14 and in the Crew they have the same learning, leadership, and advancement opportunities as if they were in the troop. As far as my comments on Eagle please go back and read my posts. I was very specific. I merely pointed out that the Scouts who chose to join the Crew could still continue their Boy Scout advancement " If that was their goal". I was showing that the move to the crew would have no effect on the goals they may have set in the troop...IF they chose to go to the crew. You have a habit of posting what I 'think'. I would prefer you post what you think, I will take care of posting what I think. That seems fair to me, how about you?

If you do not know the answer do not feel obliged to respond to the questions. As far as getting to the point...patience is a virtue. BW

Having developed very few "filters" youth from birth till late teenage years absorb both good an bad information on a nearly continual basis from their environment.

Allow me to ask for relevant facts if you don't mind. If you do not know the answer do not feel obliged to respond to the questions. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Lisabob, Your suggestion of what I replied to the original poster is totally inaccurate. "telling the original poster that there is no official restriction handed out by BSA national is one thing - explaining why many troops still prefer to have people other than parents sign off on requirements is another, and might be useful for her to understand too. I did not say there was no official restricion in my first post. I said that Scoutnut was correct and that the Scoutmaster was responsible for determining who could sign the handbook requirements and under what condition and was to maintain a list of those people and conditions, and I gave an example. Perhaps you confused someone else's post as being mine. I did not mention why some troops do not prefer to let parents sign because it is not relevant to the question. The question was WHO was allowed to sign not WHY are they allowed to or not. Had Lynn07 asked why parents can't sign I would have explained, that there is nothing saying they can't...as long as they are approved by the Scoutmaster. What I hope would be the "most useful" for Lynn07to understand is what the scouting program says on the issue, not the random and various opinions that can be believed by other people. I hope this helps you, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As well meaning as Beavah may be...the information I shared is straight from the BSA Youth Protection training, as are the policies and procedures I outlined for cheffy. I feel comfortable saying that several well qualified experts in the medical, legal, and child welfare fields are responsible for the content of that training and the BSA policies related to it. I cannot help but believe thay have a better grasp of the situation than Beavah's personal opinion. And for the protection of the child I would be far more likely to follow the YP recommendations and not Beavahs. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's no trick to making boys and adults happy and not use any Boy Scout methods. If we ran a free program where kids played video games for 90 mintues a week, we could easily get a 100 happy kids to join and keep happy parents. It's just not Boy Scouting. Even if they dress like Scouts it's still not Boy Scouting. Even if the leaders dress like Scouts, it's still not Scouting, (This message has been edited by Bob White)

66% really? how about that. And how many diffrent religions would say make up that 66%?

For any aggressive physical contact resulting in an injury between scouts, the unit is required by the policies of the BSA to report the injury to the Council Scout executive. As an adult if you suspect that physical abuse has taken place against a child you are required by law in nearly every state to report that abuse to the proper leagal authorities. If you suspect that such abuse has taken place in relationship to scouting, then you are required by BSA policy to report your suspicions to the Council Scout Executive in the council where the suspected abuse took place. This is were the scout your are counseling to the other scout should should begin. If he has concerns that abuse has taken place he should talk with his parents and explain that if he were three years older and believed as he did he would be compelled by law to call the authorities, and that if his scoutmaster had followed the policies of the BSA he would have notified the Council Scout Executive of the burning incident, he should ask his parents for guidance and assistance in this matter. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Barry I would, if needed, create a solution that controlled Troop size without turning away new scouts and still offering a quality scouting program that met the needs of the older scouts without taking away their ability to advance to Eagle if that was their wish. No one would be forced join the Crew, but I am confident we could make it appealing enough that it would likely resolve the membership situation without negatively effecting the scout's involvement in scouting.

What percentage of the worlds population has a monotheistic belief?

Not at all Lisa bob, I am simply pointing out that there is no substance to the arguments that the Scouting Methods,MB requirements or BSA policies keep parents from being MB counselors to their sons, and that you cannot control what others want to think. If you are an approved counselor and you want to work with your son the BSA supports and permits it. Others can think what they want you, are doing nothing wrong. My point was only that there were nothing in the MB requirements, methods, or policies that keeps any parent from counceling their sons if they are registered and approved for the MB topic. Do you disagree with that statement? I have no interest in telling you how to parent, I am intersted that people use nonexistent BSA elements to explain why they choose not to do something that the BSA says go ahead and do.

Barry, Can you honestly say that a troop of 150 is not heavily adult run? Can you really tell me that the Scoutmaster knows the needs and characteristics of every scout in the unit? That would be a massive undertaking. If I were to guess that many of the scoutmaster conferences were passed to the ASMs to do would I be right? How many places can you go on a troop activity that can camp 150 people? It would be nearly impossible to operate a unit that size and still use the methods of Boy Scouting, they simply are not designed for groups that large. We had a troop of nearly two hundred in a council I lived in that broke into a red troop and a blue troop and met on different nights. Very heavily adult lead and run, very much a merit badge factory, lots of great trips, lots of money, very few scouting Methods, collapsed when the Scoutmaster retired and left but for 12 years or so was a huge camping club in complete Boy Scout uniforms. Communications: Whether you have two packs or twelve packs visiting, you should be able to have a good idea of how many scouts from each you might recruit.

John, If your son pushes your buttons and you don't want to be his counselor that's fine. All I am saying is you should not use misinformation about the BSA methods or advancement policies as the excuse. You can just say "I would rather he work with a different counselor". Nothing wrong with that. But to say it enhances the Adult Association method or that it violates a rule simply isn't true. And to say it's because of fear over what others MIGHT think is just unnecessary. Schiff Then there is the BSA Advancement Policies which state that A) No Individual, Unit, council or district has the authorty to alter the advancement policies of the BSA B) That no individual, unit, council or district has the authority to alter the advancement requirements of the BSA C) That any registered counselor may counsel any scout for topics for which thay have been approved including their own children or other familiy memebers. Make a rule and someone will feel they are above it and disobey it. That doesn'y make them right! No unit has no authority to do any of the things you suggest, nor does the council or district. Your post is another example of scout leaders who do not know or do not follow the policies of the BSA program. Ed What you posted would be correct IF the scout did not know who was a registered counselor for that topic. But if the Scout says he will be using his mother for first aid MB because she is a registered counselor an the scoutmaster checks with the council and she is, then I am pretty sure the scout already knows where she lives so the SM would not need to give him the contact information. The BSA advancement policies state that ANY registered and approved counselor can work with ANY scout. If you have a concern about the quality of an approved counselor then you should share that with the council advancement committee. It is their authority to approve or remove counselors not the scoutmaster's. If your problem is with the policy itself then you should notify the National office and wait to see if the policy changes. Until it does you have a responsibility to abide by the policies of the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yes Ed, and that is exactly what my previous fictional SPL did, but I am pretending that he had been in the office for 6 months and had more experience. For ths fictional SPL I am pretending that he has only been in office for 1-week.

Sometimes you have no choice. If your meeting space has capacity limits, if the CO only wants to serve members children, available program resources, wishes of the CO. If you don't know where your Webelos are coming from before the cross over you =have a communications problem not a unit size problem. The same is true of the units who lost control of teir recruiting eforts. That is a separate issue from controling unit size.

I think absolutely there is a difference between a 110+ troop and a 100+ pack. To begin with the type of activities they take part in are completely different. Secondly Dens and Packs are completely adult lead, and patrols and troops are not. To ask an adult to lead and adult committee of 10 or 12 is not that hard a task, but for a Youth SPL to lead a committee that large is really overloading their capacity, which is why patrols are kept to 6-8 people and not 10-12. 8 patrols of 8 scouts= 64 people. Pretty much the limit for youth leadership at this age and stage of development.

I have never gotten a call with 25 new scouts at one time. Normally what would happen is a month or more before the crossover webelos Dens would vist the troop. By crossover time I usually knew how many scouts were coming from what dens or packs. If I had a troop of 35 and I wanted to retain that simialr size I would look at how many scouts I had turning 18 that year and I would accept applications from that many Webelos. Brothers of existing troop members would get first opportunity for the avilable openings. I would simply explain to the other Webolos and parents that due to space and resources we find it necessary to limit the trop size, and we would be happy to recommend other are troops for them to consider joining.

Hi John The Girl Scouts do that, but there is a big difference in our two organizations. It's called "the charter concept", we have one the Girk Scouts do not. In Girl Scouts every unit is owned by the national organization. In the BSA they are not, the units are owned by the charter organization. The BSA by design is limited in what it can tell units what to do. they can direct the CO's to follow agreed upon elements, but they cannot totally control their operations. The charter concept does not allow that. That is why some councils have gone to mandatory training and not theBSA. When councils first did this I contacted the head of training at thetime and asked him if the national office supported this action. His response was that while the national office was aware of the practice they not not support it or recommend it. Units are chartered to the councils. Councils are fairly autonomous corporations. So while National is willing to let councls do this, National cannot without first doing away with charter organizations and taking ownership of the units themselves, and that ain't gonna happen. So while its fine to say National oughta...you first need to understand that the charter concept limits what national can and cannot do. So that puts things back in the hands of the charter organizations.

Now that's a different topic. Yes, the Scoutmaster can choose who can sign off requirements in the Handbook. But he cannot control where the scout learns or who he learns from. The Scoutmaster only controls who tests the scout. But the SM cannot stop a parent from working with their son as a MB counselor for topics for which they are an approved counselor. I do not know how you measure an enhancement to a method, you use a method or you don't. Having Scouts learn from, meet and work with adults is adult association. Parents are adults. If the experience is a positive one, then working with and building relationships with a parent is as rewarding as with a stranger, wouldn't you think? As I said if you just want to say that you don't want to work with your son, that;s fine, just be careful that you do not mislead others by using a nonexitent BSA policy or Method as the reason.

Jeff This group of parents, are they going to be the chater organization? Are they supplying scouts? How Many? Are they willing to serve in a leadership position if approved by the Charter organization? What positions? What challenges yo face will depend on what you have to start with.

Perhaps I misread? Eisly, Did you not post "The parents should not be the MB counselors for their own son,? Lisabob, did you not write "Plus, esp. with these Eagle-required "school work" badges, it is just too easy for some people to assume favoritism when a parent counsels their own child." John, did you not write "To me, when EagleSon was a youth member of the program (he's aged out now), letting someone else counsel him was a chance to leverage the Adult Association Method." If you did not then my points were totally out of context. If you did however, then I feel their validity is easily defendable. 1)Adult Association includes parents 2)The BSA advancement policies specifically approve as parents as counselors for their own children. 3) Not sharing your knowledge and interest with your own children as a MB counselor for fear of what others might say is giving into peer pressure. As far as wanting him to get another person's personal political views as part of the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge...I have reviewed the merit badge requirements and I do not find anything in the requirements that even remotely has anything to do with the counselor sharing their personal politics with the scout, or even asking the scout to discuss personal politics in any way. Is that correct? If you don't want to be the counselor thats one thing, but you can confuse or mislead others by using reasons that misrepresent the BSA requirements, policies, and Methods. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

For a Scout or anyone to be able to hear "So what's your plan for tomorrow?" and think it's the same as "go clean out the stove" is a stretch of epic proportion. As a experiment tonight, I would like each of you to go to your spouse or teenage child and ask "So what is your plan for tommorrow?" Then tell me how many answer that it's not their job to clean out the stove.