Bob White

Your charter organization is within their authority to make that condition. While not a requirement of the BSA, having two unrelated leaders at the meeting is a better barrier against abuse than two related adults. Should one leader violate a youth protection condition a relative is far less likely to take action aginst the behavior.

Longhaul, You are incorrect regarding this reporting procedure. If you recall the YP training you might have recieved, if the suspected abuse took place on BSA property, or during a unit activity, you are required by the BSA to contact the Council Scout Executive in the council where the abuse took place...first. One reason for this is that reporting agencies vary. Your training gave you a contact number for the appropriate agency in you State or community. But abuse must be reported to the appropriate authority in the state or community where the abuse took place. Calling the local council Scout executive will insure that the correct authority is contacted for that vicinity. The local Scout Executive will then instruct you how to proceed. Scout Executives have additional training in this area and often have established contacts in the community that most unit leaders probably do not have. Child abuse of this type affects more than just the one child, it can have a devestating effect on other scouts in the unit and parents as well. The SE can help you, the Scout, his family, and the unit, with support from local resources to help everyone deal with this tragic crime. This information is explained in the BSA Youth Protection Training and is available on-line, the BSA recommends this training be re-newed at least every three years. I think more frequently is better.

Proceed with caution dad! If you find the site, for you to add any of the over 70 BSA protected logos or phrases the manufacturer will need to be a BSA licensed dealer. Other wise you could both be in violation of federal trademark laws. The link provided in the prvious post does not diplay the BSA Seal that they would have recieved had they been an approved vendor.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually the BSA YP training only defines neglect, it spends no time on identifying or reporting it. BSA focuses on physical and sexual abuse in all of its YP programs, and spends far more than 10 minutes discussing some of the physical and behavoral traits often seen in abuse victims. The BSA YP training also tells adults how to report abuse or suspected abuse when they have a reasonable suspicion. It also explains how to talk with the youth without being an inquisitor and without making the child feel at fault for the suspected abuse. I find it interesting that you and others are concerned about how a well meaning but incorrect reporting will damage the family unit. The training addresses this point specifically. First the abuse may very well be at the hands of someone other than a parent. Secondly, it is not your responsibility to first be a witness or wait for absolute proof, it is your responsibility for the welfare of the child to report your suspicians. You can tell the agency why you suspect. They have additional training to determine the next step. The Scout leaders role is to be informed of the signs of abuse and to report their suspicions. And thirdly, putting aside the discomfort of the family ...what about the welfare of the youth possibly being abused. To make a report for the purpose of harrassing a person could result in civil or criminal charges. But persons who report based on resonable suspicion are protected in much the same way that a person who gives first aid to a victim is. I am unsure where you received your YP training but it is very different than the training needed by, and provided to, adults and leaders in the BSA. Is the training effective? Nine years ago using the knowledge gained for BSA YP training, I was involved in the removing a volunteer from the BSA for behavior that violated the YP safeguards. The parents in the argued for his reinstatement (we did not tell them why he was removed...he did), I was threatend with a lawsuit by him, as were others who were involved. He threatened the council with a law suit. He also tried to stay in contact with the unit, for which he was threatened with arrest. Three months ago he was on our local news for his arrest for over a dozen charges of child sexual abuse upon students at a school where he was a substitute teacher. He has since plead guilty and is awaiting sentencing. It took 9 years for the community to discover what the BSA Youth Protection program saw. Think of how many scouts might have abused by this animal had the YP program not trained the volunteer leaders sufficiently. I am confident that anyone who reviews the content of the training will discover that Beavah has confused his terminology as well as his description of the training program. The BSA adult Youth Protection training is available on-line. If you take it from a live trainer check with your council to make sure they have been approved by the Council Scout Executive to teach the course.

I believe you may be incorrect in your terms Beavah, The YP training speaks of Child Neglect and Child Abuse. Child Neglect is the withholding of basic care such as food, shelter and clothing, and usually involves the parent, guardian, or even a care giver such as a day care worker or even a Scout leader who for instance was neglegent in the care of scouts in his or her care. Child Abuse is normally divided into three categories; Phycical Abuse, Emotional Abuse, and Child Sexual Abuse. The BSA Youth Protection programs focus on Physical and Sexual Abuse, and help both youth and adult understand how to recognize, resist and report suspected abuse. The resist part is of course taught to the youth. In replacement of tha portion adults are taught of the barriers both recommended and required by the BSA to help prevent abuse opportunities in a scouting envirnment. For more info I recommend the retaking of the BSA YP program on-line or with an approved trainer.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Well then let's get rid of merit badges because BP didn't have those. And lets get rid of the Star, Life, and Eagle ranks because BP hated those. Like that is really gonna happen. And lets not instruct scouts on camping technology, B-P had them lash pack frames out of sticks and rope. How dare we sleep in nylon tents. Even the UK program isn't the same as it was in B-P's day. Isn't that correct? How long have we been electing patrol leaders in the BSA Kudu?

I would ask aound you scouting and personal community for the name of a trusted camping store in your area with a trained staff such as REI. They can help you in selecting a pack that will serve your son at this stage. John gives excellent advice to get good shoes. Also watch the weight. Once packed it should not exceed 25% of his body weight at this stage. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Oh My! The neckerchief changed from functional to decorative about 15 years before the de la Renta designed Uniform. I cannot believe that scouters are still bemoaning that change for nearly 40 years. I thought it was weird when scouters still complained 25 years after their councils merged. Think of tears that must be getting shed over the loss of spats!

So a scout could earn Tenderfoot to first class in B-P's day, facsinating. I do not recal how long I took at each rank, it was 40 years ago. But Tenderfoot to First Class advancement was different then in the late 60's than it is now. We had to do tracking, and star gazing, hiking, and signaling, but then there are things scouts do today that I didn't have to do a scout. But then I never complained about how things used to be because so far I am told time travel in impossible. So I pretty much live in today and today's Scouting program. Looking back is fun if you are planning a class reunion. Related in name only meant they have nothing else in common but the name. So what they did in B-Ps day was differnet they what they did in my day which was probable different than how they did it in your day which is different then then do taoday and I will bet a dollar that in te not to distant future it will change again. Thinks change, thats life.

"My crew which has been operational for 9 years has a CO that is a non-legal entity (it is not a non-profit organization, it has no legal status)," Then get thee to a lawyer and an accountant. Any income or assets of the "unit" are likely considered as personal income for which a person or persons now owe income tax. (plus back taxes and penalties over the past nine years) Not to mention the personal liability issues you have exposed yourselves to. Not formiing a corporation was a VERY bad idea.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Suggesting to the local businesss and FOS donors that if the district lines would no lomger benefit their community would be untruthful. The money from FOS always goes to the council, to use throught the Council re-organizing districts would not change that. Districts are service areas on a map and have no assets, no legal standing, no authority attached to them. To become emotionally attached to them is silly. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Criminal background checks will only send a red flag if the person had a conviction. This of course only exposes the tip of the iceburg since no one knows how many people commit crimes without being convicted. The BSA in the YP training, in the NLE training, committee training, and CR training reminds units that they need to get references and follow up on them and enforce the YP procedures in the unit. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Many, many, scouters do not understand what a district is. The council is the legal entity. It is a registered not-for-profit corporation and the legal owner of all council properties and assets. A district is simply a series of lines on a map used to create smaller geographic areas for the convenience of the council staff to manage and serve. That last line is important...for the convenience of the council staff to manage and serve. That includes the professional and volunteer staff. This is why we wear a Council identification on our uniform not a district. The district is just a big sub-committee of the council. No, units have no say over the district service area, The lines normally are drawn along school district lines, which is which why if your locals schools go throgh a reditrsicting often times the district lines change. Sometimes they follow county lines. Often councils try to keep a balanced number of units between districts. District boundaries are determined by the council executive board. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Very funny! Nice beard though.

GW What you and Ed suggest is not even close to what the YP training directs leaders to do. I cannot believe that any adult could take that training and come away with that attitude. What exactly is your understanding of an adult leaders responsibility if they suspect a scout is being physically abused?

Contacting Barry off-line in hopes of stemming further problems. BW

No, this is simply a history, so that in case of an injury or illness during a scouting activity the unit will have a medical history to give to professional medical personnel. I hope your son has a great time in Scouting! BW

Barry, You make so many incorrect statements regarding what I suggested that I hardly know where to begin. But here is one place we can start Even though you preach a aged based style program Bob, I always felt it was only result of loyalty to the BSA Now I hate to be the one to have to break this to you Barry, But Venturing Crews and Sea Scout Ships are just as much a part of the BSA as Cub Packs and Boy Scouts Troops. You are misrepresnting what I wrote so badly that it would help if you just ask questions and allow me to answer them myself. Your answering for me isn't going to work.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Scoutmomma You did nothing wrong, in fact I am sure many people are very excited for you for the unit growth you have experienced. It was jblake who tried to use what your unit did as evidence that we were wrong in some ways. Your fine, best regards BW

"How do you know those bruises on little Johnnies arms aren't from getting beat up at school & not at home? Or maybe he did fall down the steps? You don't know." Ed, What did you learn from the BSA YP training about bruising and other injuries?

Jblake you are ingoring physical limitatins that many units deal with. Our goal for instance is to double our Ship membership by years end to 30. Could we concievably double that in 2 or three years to 60? No, not because we couln't find that many new members, but because our CO has set the limit at 30 purely due to physical limitations of the CO's facilities. So no matter how you sell it, even if the scouts were available, not every scout unit has the ability to grow larger than their recources or owners determine. Scoutmomma did not prove anyone wrong, and I do not understand why you would say she did. She said she had 40 some scouts and things were going fine. Did the vast majority of us not say thay we saw 30-65 scouts as a very workable size? Isn't 42 within those parameters? Even the BSA says that that is the optimum size for a troop.

Is the BSA a religious organization? Are you speaking legally or in my personal view of Scouting? Legal stuff I leave to lawyers and courts. Personally I view the BSA as being religious in much the same way as I view our country's founding, our government, and our prevailing culture as religious in nature. But I think there is a huge difference between being religious, being a religion, or being in support of a particular religion. Differences that I feel you at times try to purposely confuse. In researching my post I found a fairly recent survey that showed that over 82% of Americans feel their religious beliefs are important to them, a figure that has barely waivered in many years. By that very statistic one would have to admit that we are a religious nation. If something is important to me then it plays a role in many things I do in all aspects of my life. With the vast majority of Americans who see relious beliefs as a part of their every day activities and decision making based on those beliefs, I do not see how you rationally believe that you can ever separate the American people from something they obviously feel is important to them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I share you wonderment at that Gern, I was at Philmont Training Center one summer and had a Buddhist Scoutmaster in the same seminar. He and I were discussing this one day because he could not understand it either. It did not seem to him that Buddhism qualified and yet he had a troop chartered by a Buddist Temple and had earned the Buddhist "religious" award for Scouting from his faith. He asked me if who I thought he should talk to about it, I smiled and suggested he could talk to God. We both smiled and shook hands. A passing Rabbi who was on faculty as a Chaplain stopped and said he thought that was the best response I could have given. (that was quite a sight a Buddhist and a Catholic disussing the diversity of BSA religious views with a Rabbi.) The next day I gave him a name and phone # for the Relationships Division at the BSA National Office and suggested he could call them for clarification on the relationship between the BSA and the Buddhist philosophy. That is still the best suggestion I can offer.

Hey Gern, not sure that you are right about the three religions. It appears Hindu qualifies as well according to this source. http://www.bnaiyer.com/vidya/basic-hindu-primer.html As does Bahai http://www.bahai.org/faq/facts/bahai_faith As does Zoroanstrianism which is a pre-christian faith. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism Then again, Scouting also has as members who are followers of Taoism and the Tao religion/philosophy has a scouting religious award that meets the BSA faith requirements, as does as Buddhism as well. So, as I add them up it would appear that the BSA program is open to the religious beliefs of about 86.5% of the population of the U.S., is that correct? Because, I look at Trevorum's statement that "many devoutly religious people do not believe in a supreme being." And statisticall as well as quantitatively it really isn't many people, in fact by comparison it is very few. He then says "Belief in the western notion of monotheistic god is not an element of many faiths." first the notion of a monothiestic God did not originate in the West. Zoroatrinism which predates Christianity and is a monotheistic faith began in the East. And while he is correct that there are many, many, faiths that practice polytheism they have few followers per religion, accounting for only .02 percent of the the U.S. Population. The balance of the population claim to have no no belief in a God or Gods (atheists), or believe their is no way to know if there is a God or Gods (agnostics)http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-text/Russell/agnostic.htm, and as such are unable to perform a "Duty to God" if they do not believe in a God. So we are speaking about approx 13.5% of the population, that are unable to meet the program requirements of the BSA. So because the BSA only accepts the beliefs of 86.5% of the people Trevorum says " I think this whole situation is a result of BSA policy makers - none of whom evidently knew much about religious diversity" The BSA recognizes and accepts all the varied faiths mentioned above and others except for the religions of .02 of U.S. population and they have little knowledge of diversity? There is no logic to his conclusion. That argument lacks statistical foundation. Even if you counted atheists and agnostics as religions it would be impossible to show evidence that the abundance of beliefs that scouting is open to are not diverse, as well as plentiful. Trevorum's final conclusion was that the BSA is a white elephant. As I understood a white elephant, it is an object whose upkeep costs more than its value. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/410050.html apparently that view is only held by those few people who are unable to embrace the religious faiths of nearly 90% of the U.S. You cannot be all things to all people. But you cannot say that the BSA has not continually tried to be something for most people.

Look guys I did not ask for Merlyn to get his undies in a knot. I just asked a couple questions to get some facts straight. I wasn't looking for anyone in particular to answer, and I shouldn't have to rush to a conclusion without facts just because Merlyn lacks patience. Trevorm says many thousand religions do not have monothisitic beiefs. I wonder how many people in the US that represets? BW