Bob White

This would benefit the BSA how?

That depends on what the event is can you provide more information?

When my wife was a Den Leader she posted the Knights Code of Conduct on the wall on a cardboard shield. (It was in the Wolf Handbook at that time, and might still be.) She explained that the Scout Oath and promise were based on the oath taken by The Knights of King Arthur, and that these Cub Scouts were now the Knights and our basement meeting room was their castle. They would all take the Knights Oath and then make cardboard shields with there own Coat of Arms design and hang them next to the Knights Code. This is the spot where they did their opening and closing ceremony each week. The code talked about helping others, being courteous, being honest, and respecting those of greater age (the den leaders). Each year they made a new shield at the first meeting of the school year. She had a very well behaved group. Maybe something similar will work for you. As far as tips for a good meeting, check out the list provided in the Cub Scout Leader Book. (Notice there are no snacks in a Den meeting agenda:) ) Have fun with the scouts you serve, BW

ASM162 It seems to me you have thought this through really well and you know what the right thing is to do for the scouts. As you say in your last line the problem will be other adults, specifically the old scoutmaster. This award has obviously come to mean more to him than to the scouts. If he is going to camp with you I would sit down with him before you go, and let him know this was the scouts' decision and so the competition will not be a topic of discussion. Have fun with the scouts you serve, BW

Baden-P I feel for you, I really do. I understand how my support of the scouting program must annoy you. It must be awful. Imagine how tiresome it is for those who support today's program to hear leaders not use it and then complain of all the scouts who quit? As far as Kudu, I see nothing wrong with his understanding of what scouting used to be, but do not live in 1907. We live in a different age and a different society than your namesake did. I think Baden-Powell would be pleased with the vast amount of his program that still exists in the world of Scouting and even in the BSA, I think he would be disappointed however in how few leaders bother to either learn it, or use it. I learn new ways to teach skills all the time from the world around us. You do not have to alter the program methods or violate laws and policies to use them to enhance a scouting program. Tens of thousands of scout leaders do it all the time. As I mentioned before if 99% of adult volunteers follow the program and only 1% did not, that would mean 12,000 adult volunteers are not following the program. Imagine the damage those 12,000 adults do every year. Now let's consider that only 29% of program leaders have even taken BSA basic leadership training. So how many of the 71% that have not would you guess actually know what a scouting program is supposed to be, and what it is not supposed to be? You should be relieved that comparatively few posters seem to actually like the scouting program. I would hope that the many that do not will continue to give you comfort. Best wishes to the scouts you serve, BW

it!

That was a fun time wasn't!

Sctdad my concern was that you not only get the patched you needed but that all participants in the transaction followed the law. Classb is one of the many BSA licensed vendors that can help you.

Units can still use local shops. The BSA will allow a shop within the geographic confines of the council to serve that one council without a license. They cannot however go outside the council without being licensed. That change was only recently announced.

There is nothing in the BSA YP program that encourages or suppports reckless or false reporting. So the cost associated with that kind of behaviour is not relevant to the BSA training or to a leader's responsibility of reporting reasonable suspicions.

So far Longhaul the only person to suggest that the SE is giving legal advice is you. They will help you with proper reposrting for the location where the abuse is believed to have taken place, that is not legal advice. They will help you with local resources for the scouts, and their families, that is not legal advice. And since it happened on scout property or during a scout activity, after the scout's needs are taken care of, the SE will likely want to know how it was able to happen and what YP barriers were in use and which ones were not. But there is no leagal advice. You are manufacturing a situation that does not exist.

Of course its about money! Why should the patch manufacturer be allowed to make money using trademarks he does not have permission to use? He must pay a royalty to the owner of the logo. Unless he is a licensed vendor with the trademark holder he cannot use anyone's trademark. Why did you think trademarks exist? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Longhaul, What State law says that you have to report the suspicion to them first? None. They just say if your are mandated to report and who you need to report to. But they do not say that you must call them first. So reporting to the SE under the BSA's stated conditions does not violate any law.

"Since fiscal and social cost is no object, do you favor banning all male leaders from Boy Scout Troops? That's ridiculous, and totally defies any logic since the scout comes in contact with far more adult males in his life than the scout leader. If the unit enforces the YP barriers to abuse the chances of the abusive behavior taking place from a scout leader or in a scouting activity are practically impossible. It is only when the barriers are not used that the potential of abuse during scouting becomes a possibility. Rather than ban male leaders, we simply need leaders who understand how to identify signs of abuse and report it, and to maintain the YP barriers within the unit program. And that comes through recruiting and trainin quality people. The BSA explains that in their Youth Protection Training, available on-line.

I am strongly in favor of children not being abused, and I am glad that the BSA has for many years now been a leader in training their volunteers to recognize signs of child physical and sexual abuse and taking action to protect those children. I really do not care what it costs, I find it disgusting that some adults might put the cost of protecting children over the ethics of stopping child abuse. But thanks for asking for my opinion. BW

Moms and Dads don't run Scout units, Scout leaders do. This is a decision for the Pack committee committee chair and Cubmaster to make. I recommndyou contact one or the other and ask what is the Pack policy for wearing the neckerchief correctly so that your son will be in a correct uniform. You could then contact the Tiger Den Leader and offer to do a lesson for the Den on how to fold and wear their neckerchief so that they can look handsome in their uniforms.

Fine...change the word 'witness' to 'suspect'. It is a sad condition of a society if a person has reason to supect a crime has taken place and not report it. Especially when the crime is against a child. As leaders who have contact with over 2 million youth in our country we are in a unique opportunity to be aware of physical and sexual crimes being committed against youth. Yet There are people (or so Beavah suggets) who would be more concered with the cost of investigating those reports rather than be concerned over the number of children that could be helped. It would appear that the 29% of trained direct contact leaders would include Youth protection training as well as basic leader training.

Your problem in the pack is not due to the BSA uniofrm methods but far more likely to the lack of training among the Pack leadership. Here is what the BSA's Cub Scout Leader's Book says about the wearingthe Cub Neckerchiefs. 1) Fold the long edge over several small flat folds to about 6 inches from the tip of the neckerchief. A tight fold prevents gathering around the neck and is more efficient than rolling or twirling. 2) Place the neckerchief arond the neck over the turned under collar of the uniform shirt; or wear under the shirt collar if desired. 3) Draw the neckerchief slide over the ends and adjust to fit snugky. Let the neckerchief ends hang loose. 4) The portion of the neckerchief showing below the back of the neck should measuere no more than 6 inches. I believe you will find this same information in the Cub rank handbooks. Whether the scouts wear the neckerchief blow the collar ar over the turned-under collar are to be determined by the unit and followed by the entire unit. I really sounds like what you have is a leadership pproblem more so than a problem with the BSA uniforming.

Technically wearing the neckerchief "over the collar" is not correct. You must wear the neckerchief under the collar OR roll the collar inside the shirt and simply wear the neckerchief around the neck (with the top button unbuttoned). Perhaps if you wore the entire uniform the unit would not be quite so "obscure"? BW

The question isn't are we doing as well as we did a hundred years ago. That really doesn't matter since we do not serve those youth or live in that time. But the BSA still exists after nearly a hundred years. That answers that question to some degree. The question is are we doing the best we can for Scouting a few years down the road, and there are hundreds of volunteers selected from across the country who work on national scouting committees who put their time and effort into that question every day. Will those changes please over 1.2 million adult volunteers? Of course not. If 99% of all leaders approved of the Scoutiong programs that would still leave over 12,000 scouters complaining about Scouting on Internet forums.

Everything in perspective Nessmuk, Wearing blue jeans with the official shirt is sloppy. Wearing prohibited District patches is sloppy. Not tucking in your shirt is sloppy. Covering a BSA red JAckshirt with patches is sloppy. Wearing a sleeve full of quality unit awards is sloppy. Not following uniform policies of the BSA is sloppy. Wearing the neckerchief under the collar is a BSA approved option for units that choose to wear the neckerchief. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sctdad wrote "I found a website one time that sold patches that were general styles and images, but you were able to add your own text. Once he adds text that connects the fluer-de-lis with BSA scouting, words such as Cub Scout Pack,and others, it no longer becomes ageneric symbol, it becomes the protected emblem of the BSA and the manufacturer would need to be a licensed vendor.

Gold Wing is partially correct. The rule for two-deep leadership is that two registere adults or one registered adult and a parent of a participant one of whom must be at least 21-years-old, be present for all trips and activitities (except for patrol outings with the Scoutmasters approval). BUT, the policy goes on to say that "The charter organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities" and the Den meeting is a scouting activity. It is not uncommon for COs for pack leadership to require two deep leadership at den meetings for the same reason it is required for other activities. As a barrier against abuse and as a safety prcation should one adult be injured or become ill. If the Co says they do not consider a husband and wife as adequate to meet their leadership requiremenst then that is the rule for that unit. If you review the Cub Scout Den leader specific training or the Cub Scout Leader Book you will find that present at den meetings are to be the Den Leaders AND the Assistant Den Leader(s), and that every Den is to have at least one or more assistant den leaders. BW

I gave one example of a situation I believe was a strong example to support the value of the training. I am sorry to hear that you have had multiple situations in one council. That would appear to be further evidence that more effort needs to be put into selecting quality leaders. I believe you will find that in every case I have directed readers to the discover the actual BSA training. I am confident that once they take (or in some cases re-take) the training it will become clear to them as to what information shared in this thread was accurate and what was not. Reporting suspected abuse endangers neither the reporter or the BSA unless you do so incorrectly. This is explained in the BSA YP training as you most likely know due to your self-attested familiarity with the material. The fact that the subject is challenging is why the BSA offers training on the topic. So far little you have shared resembles the content of the BSA YP training, But I am willing to let others reacquaint themselves with the material and make that decision themselves. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

A Scout is Helpful, A Scout is Brave. It is a sad condition of our society that people would witness any crime and not report it, but as we know if strong charater and ethical decision making was a natural occuring component of human nature then ideals of Scouting would not be as unique as they apparently are. If it takes State or Federal law to compel people to report the suspicion of Child Abuse, and it protects even one child from this atrocity, then I welcome the law.