Bob White

A basic concept of a "uniform" is that every in a specific group dresses alike. The reason the BSa keeps all uniform pieces official is to allow them to maintain control over the use of the image s of scouting. It's logical in the case of a Boy Scout activity staff that using the "current" uniform as the dress standard makes more sense than choosing a historic uniform. Granted the timing of the recent transition would make the selection of the last uniform a possible choice, it's alwasy better to move forward then backward. I would imagine most camps staffs as well as training staffs such as Wood Badge will be requireing the current "centennial" uniform.

You are incorrect on this mmhardy. You are confusing a scout unit with a corporation. The Scout unit is merely a youth activity within the parent organization. It is not required by any law to have bylaws. It is no different than a chess club at a school. The School district is a corporation and required to have bylaws that define the corporation, The clubs within the school district are not corporations and are not required to have bylaws. You have a misunderstanding of the structure of scouting especially at the unit level.

Gutterbird, I would like to offer a differnet point of view if I could. Winter camping is a different adventure level than camping during other times of the year. I would like you to reread your original post by substituting other adventures of this level in place of "winter camping". here goes... I have been a SM for about a year. Our troop has never done white water canoeing and the boys want to do it, so we are going to give it a go. It will be done locally on a nearby river and will be a first for all leaders and boys. I have done some research on the subject and have consulted the BS Fieldbook. I am now looking for any tips that are not in the books that you may want to share. Our canoes are just the standard Coleman type 15ft canoes. or I have been a SM for about a year. Our troop has never done rock climbing and the boys want to do it, so we are going to give it a go. It will be done locally at a nearby State Park and will be a first for all leaders and boys. I have done some research on the subject and have consulted the BS Fieldbook. I am now looking for any tips that are not in the books that you may want to share. or I have been a SM for about a year. Our troop has never done downhill skiing and the boys want to do it, so we are going to give it a go. It will be done locally at a nearby ski lodge and will be a first for all leaders and boys. I have done some research on the subject and have consulted the BS Fieldbook. I am now looking for any tips that are not in the books that you may want to share. Our skiis are just the standard rental type. If you were not the SM but being asked what to do, what would your advice be. I hope you would say "Don't do it!" You and your scouts need training. the right gear, and some practical experience at a lesser level before going out for a winter overnighter in tents. If you look at the Sweet 16 of Safety I hope you would see that this is an adventure that you probably are not adequately prepared for. My recommendation would be to do some winter day activities first. Nature hikes, tracking, tubing, astronomy, etc. activities that will give you and the scouts opportunity to learn proper clothing, how to stay dry, how to cook (cooking in winter is different than other times of the year) proper gear selection (Not all dome tents are rated for winter use, you could damage a lot of costly equipment), winter first aid. All these things should be learned and practiced before you attempt an overnight outing such as this with an entire group of untrained and inexperienced winter campers. There are a lot of winter activities you can do outdoors without having to tent camp and risk the health and welfare of everyone involved. Train and prepare first. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Certainly the units can chose to take additional measures, a fact that was mentioned several posts ago. But be careful about using common sense as a guide. That assumes that the person has it and it assumes that their vission of what is common sense is shared by others. The question of the thread was 'what are the actual BSA rules' and while some posters might not agree with and adult driver in a vehicle with passengers of the opposit gender, the fact is it is bot prohibited or even addressed by the BSA rules. So it would probably be a good idea not to confuse personal opinion with BSA rules. After all that is what caused dluders question to begin with.

mmhardy Not all Charter organizations are 501c-3 corporations. In fact not all are even 501c corporations. The unit is simply an activity within the charter organization it is not the corporation, in fact you can't make the unit a corporation as you do not own the Scouting program so you can't incorporate it, it's already incorporated by the BSA. So if the CO is a corporation (and it does not have to be) then yes, they are required by law to have bylaws. But there is no value or purpose to them in the Pack or troop. Does your local high school's basketball team have bylaws? Does the Junior High School Band have bylaws? Does your church's choir have bylaws? Of course not, and local scout troops and packs are no different in relationship to their charter organization than the the teams, bands, and choirs are to the school or church. You are using the wrong resources and the wrong examples to support your misunderstanding of the structure of scouting at the unit level.

"OUr Troop logo will go on the sides of the trailer and the ad space is for the back doors. I do like the idea of the phrase "Al's Pizza is a proud supporter of Troop xyz"." As you can see scoutldr their intention is to have commercial advertising with the use of the Scouting name and emblem. I would not abticipate this being approved by the Scout Executive due to percieved commercial endorsement of a product or service.

That is incorrect mmhardy, Scout units are not corporations. The COs are the corporations and any bylaws required by law would be to state and organize the structure of the CO not the unit or the unit program.

Were you in the vehicle? If so you did not mention that you were in the story. Were there others in the vehicle who said he did not do it? You did not mention that either. I can understand that he is your friend and you do not believe he did it, but that is not proof that is just your personal feeling. If he did not do it then it was not a prank it was slander and I am surprised he did not pursue it as such. Perhaps there is a reason he did not? In either case he did not violate the BSA YP protection by driiong a vehhicle with 2 female youth members in the in and if his behavior was improper having a buddy in the vehicle propable protected a youth from harm. I didn't say the BSA was always right. I accurately related what the actual BSA policy was regarding adult leadership for crew activities. If you find accurate information as arrogant or obnoxious then that is a personal problem you will need to learn to deal with. You gave your word that you would no longer be hostile to me in your posts. I expected you to be trustworthy and keep your word.

I would think that it is parents responsibility to make that determination. If a paren gives permission for a scout to attend the activity and that action is in violation of a court order then it is the parent who in in legal jeopardy not the scout unit. The court order was issued to the parent not the the Troop. I would not worry about it. Always have a signed permission slip for every scout for every outing just as the program recommends and you ill be fine. If the parent tells you that the scout cannot leave the state I woould remind them that you would not take any scout out of state without written permission from the parent, so he or she simple needs to not approve the scout's participation should that situation arise and you will honor the decision as you would with any other scout.

Buffalo Skipper Are you familiar with pre-opening activities? If so what would be some of the things you have used?

Actually we have 3 girls active in the ship BadenP. What you leave out of your story is the real possibility that the adult actually did what the girls said. The fact that the girls left the unit is in no way a testimony to the adult leader's innocence. It seems to me that what happened in your scenario was quite possibly the YP protection at work not at failure. It seems equally possible that your "friend" used poor judgement in his behavior not in his adherance to the YP rules. First you say that I was correct in what I said that it is not a violation of any regulation, then you say it was ignorant. I would choose to travel with two adults in car regardles of who the passengers are only because if I should be injured or become ill it would be a good idea to have another adult to assume the driviong responsibilities. But as far as the topic of this thread, which I believe is still 'what is the BSA policy' the information I shared was accurate as you first acknowledged prior to calling what I said ignorant. So much for you giving your word to stop doing that eh.

The reason is that unit committee was never designed to be determined by a majority, pluralirty , or quorum. The decisions are made by the CR and CC (Charter organization representative and Committee Chair. Then assignments are made to the committee members who act on those assignments and report their progress at the monthly committee meeetings. Since committees can consist of non-charter organization members, by allowing the committee the ability to control the program by a majority vote it would essentially remove the charter organizations control of their own youth program. For that reason the CO selects a CR and CC to operate their Scouting program and they are directly responsible to the CO's Institutional Head.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is because they are not scout units. The high adventure bases are not the regular scouting programs and do not have the program specific training and support materials already published and available to units that are unit program specific. I would have thought that to be fairly obvious, but I guess not.

There is no BSA regulation being violated in the scenario offered by BadenP. Having female passengers with an adult male driving is neither prohibited or counter indicated by any BSA policy or procedure. Nor is having a female leader driving in a vehicle with male youth passengers a problem. The rules are clear and simple. 1)No one on one contact between adult and youth members, 2)Two deep leadrship for outing and activities, 3)Co-ed overnighters require co-ed leadership. That is all there is to it.Follow those three rules in everything the crew does you are fine.

Beavah writes "BSA literature doesn't specify a parliamentary authority / how committee discussions are to be conducted, doesn't specify quorums or voting, doesn't specify committee scope vs. scope of da CO, only offers guidance on how new committee members and adult leaders are to be selected (by the committee or a subcommittee), doesn't specify subcommittees, doesn't specify terms of office or method for selection of officers, etc." That's not actually true. BSA Literature DOES specify the use of Roberts Rules of Order and the use of bylaws. You have to remember that the BSA is more than just Cub Scouts and Boys Scouits. I agree that no Cub or Boy Scout related literature discusses Robert's or bylaws...BUT BSA literature for Venturing does! Again however, it not for application with the adult committee but for the youth Crew officers in their meetings. The BSA in fact includes an example of Crew bylaws in the Venturing Manual. So while bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order have their place in Scouting...it is not in Cub Scout or Boy Scout program operations.

Building the firs under the awniong is a very bad idea for a number of reasons besides the danger of fire, the carbom buildup from the smoke damages the fiber shortening the life of the tent and inhibiting the water repellancy. "Near" is not measurable. What is too near the tent would depend on factors that can be contolled. Such as size of the fire, position of the tent to the wind, surrounding vegetation. While you should never build the fire near enough to be a hazard you can build it near enough to be effective. It all depend on you knowledge of fires and fire safety. Since tents are not vegetaion I would not be inclined to use the vegetaion rule for determining the distance from the fire and more inclined to use the factors I mentioned previously. If you are sleeping in a baker tent in frigid weather you are probably better off closing the awning than building a fire anyway. However as a scout we used Baker tents in my patrol. We grouped them in threew overlapping the awnings to make a shared common area under canvas. at nigh a small reflector fire was built a few feet away from the opening, longer timber was used as fuel for the fire so they could be fed into the fire a little at a time from a distance without leaving the comfort of our sleeping bags. (sort of a combination of a reflector fire and a star fire.) My point being that the "near" is an ambiguous term. A fire that poses no hazard is far enough away. A fire that could pose a hazard is too near.

lilizard62 Was it the intention of the troop to also put the troop's affiliation to scouting on the trailer? As an example Boy Scout Troop ###, or something of the like? Or were you thinking of only putting the advertising on it?

Shortridge writes "Bob White, I believe BobS did indeed state he'd checked that resource: "After a review of the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Advancement Committee Guidelines, I can't find anything at all." " Which is why I gave him the location in the Scoutmaster Handbook for the information. If you were to look in the scout master handbook for information on testing advancment where would you look? IN advancement perhaps? Under Testing? The information he seeks in in the fiorst paragraph. Where he looked when he "did not find it" I do not know. But if he looked in the section about testing advancement I do not see how he could not have found it. if he looks again I am confident he will find the correct answer. Jet56 has the correct answere and he got it from the very refeerence I shared. Anyone ASM or Scout approved by the Scoutmaster can test for the requirements that they are approved for. The Scoutmaster manages the advancement program, not the PLC, and not the committee. That does not mean that the SM is the only who who can pass requirements, it means the SM is the only one who determines who can pass requiremenst and the SM is the only one who can determine which requirements others can test based on their rank and responsibilities as wel as they abilities.

This is a topic that springs up at least a few times a year it seems on this forum. If bylaws are needed in a pack or troop no one has ever proven it. If the unit bylaws found on unit websites, or shared on this forum, are any indication then not only are they not needed, but it shows that no unit that has them knows what bylaws actual are and they never learned what the Scouting program is. A good example is an "experienced" unit leader on this forum that argued that "Troop meetings are Tusday night at 7pm" is a bylaw. It is neither a bylaw or a policy...it's part of a program plan. I think we can safely ask any unit to share its bylaws with us and we would find that A) they are not actually bylaws, B) they are in conflict with BSA regulations, C)they are an unnecessary reprint of a BSA publication. Usually all three examples can by found in a single set of unit bylaws. What we need are fewer unit bylaws and more trained unit leaders.

"I did a Google search and there are plently of examples of units with Codes of Conduct as part of their bylaws" hmmmmm, perhaps the problem that is being experienced in the unit mmhardy comes not from the confusion regarding a code of conduct, but from the fact that the unit leadership is searching the internet to try and learn the scouting program rather than using the handbooks of the Scouting program to learn the scouting program? You say you found several units with a code of conduct other than the Scout Oath and Law. Did you not also find several units that did not have a separate code of conduct. What leads you to believe the former to be right rather than the latter? Consider reading the Boy Scout Handbook to find your answer. Page 47.

shortridge I think if you reread your opening post you will see that it does indeed suggest that you believe Boy Scouts do not participate in parades because you do not see them participate in your LOCAL parades. The answer to your question of "What out-of-the-box tricks & techniques have you found to get Scouts out and marching?" would depend on first knowing why they are not. And the answer to that would likely vary from unit to unit and community to community. What specifically have you found out from the units in your community as to why they do not march in parades? You cannot find a solution unless you actually know what the problem is. Does the unit you serve march in parades? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

so Jet...what is it you believe the G2SS says that would keep you from buiding a campfire in front of the Baker?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Have you ever checked the Scoutmaster Handbook on this? It explains the correct procedures in the Advancemnt Chapter under the heading "Step 2- A Scout is Tested". If your goal is to follow the Scouting program then the contents of the BSA handbooks might be the place to start.

DugDirt There are many reasons. There is only one use for a hand ax. To split relatively small wood to get to access the dry heart wood when the exterior is wet. Ground fires are prohibited in large portions of the wets and Southwest United States. Use of ground wood is widely prohibited thropugh much of the country. Use of ground wood for fires is not a good conservation practice. With the popularity and availability of fuel stoves the actual need for a hand ax is relatively rare. Because they are seldom used an axe's weight mkes it a poor choice for backpacking. If your argument is that it teaches a scout self sufficiency or maturity, it's a weak argument. There are lots of other skills and adventures that do that, so it does not make the ax necessary to accomplish that goal. Early on as a Scout and a Scout leader there was an actual purpose to having a hand ax. Then again I still know morse code but I have not had a need to use it except for a Klondike Derby I was in in 1967. Times change., and at some point you need to learn to teach Scouting values to kids in their world not in the one you grew up in. Other than those points I think axes are fabulous .

Scouting has always taught useable skills. They have also had the good sense to realize when skills become obsolete or at least less meaningful and to remove or replace them. There is a good reason why there is a computer merit badge and not one for using an abacus, and why semaphore and tourniquets, and butter on burns, and artificial resuscitation just to name a few have been removed from the scouting handbook over the years. Even which knots we teach have changed. I doubt that you will see knots removed because they are still practical in the real world. Many occupations and activities still use knots. But if we are to use the outdoors as a tool to teach the values of the Oath and Law then we should teach good basic skills, and carrying an ax is no longer a smart or useful outdoor skill. It's fine that as a scout you felt that the ax was important, but remember that you are no longer a child and lots of things that were common place hhave been improved upon, why anchor scouts with carrying equipment that they will likely never use except in order to earn a paper card for their pocket just because you used an ax when you were a kid. Let's use scouting to teach scouts good values not to help you relive your youth.