Bob White

Since the Scout LAw is based on the Code of Chivalry then isn't anyone who refloect s the lLaw in their actions being Chivalrous?

Gosh Beav at least GW is willing to read the manul before he makes up his mind. Your just so exited to catch me or the BSA program doin something wrong your willing to make the judgement without checking. My manual is current, as is the Sea Scout training that says the same thing. Which policy applies? In Boy Scouts I would use what is in the Boy Scout training and resourses. In Cub Scouts, the Cub Training and resources. in Sea Scouting, the Sea Scout Training and resources. But you have to take the time to learn them if you are gonna use em eh?

My sympathies. I really do feel badly for you and especially for your son. This is what happens when leaders do not learn, or do not follow, the actual scoutng program. And at the moment trained leaders are at a low ebb. I can also share with you from first hand experience that unless the leaders WANT to change, you will be unable to sway them no matter how far off they are or how well you understand the scouting program. They are doing what they are comfortable doing, and unless they develop a willingness to learn, or desire to improve, you will be unable to coax a change in them. Trust me! You noticed the troop was small, can you guess why? Maybe it's time your community had a second troop to choose from. I would bet that the kids in your area are starving for an actual scouting program. I would urge to you contact you local scout office for assistance and look into starting a new troop. If you willing to be a leader in this troop, then why not be willing to lead a new troop. You already understand what scouting should not be. Give your son the chance to experience what it should be. Best wishes, BW

Sit down with the troop committee chairperson and review the job description of the troop committee secretary. Then explain that you need the committee to do their role in supporting the program and you are relying on the chairperson to make that happen. Then have a meeting with the ASPL and and the ASM for administration and ask them to work with the troop scribe too help keep the committee secretary informed of upcoming activities at least a month in advance. Then take a deep breath and relax.

Schiff Does the Marine corps accept anyone just because they are a member of the BSA? You have yet to respond.

"The larger question is a judgment call on whether the BSA should have this requirement, whether it makes good sense. Clearly people differ on their response to that Of course there are people whio differ on the topic. If you change it there will be people who disagree so then do you change it back? You cannot have values that shift everytime you believe something that others do not. Some don't believe in the pledge, do we remove it? some do not believe in helping others so do we take that out as well? "This declaration does not apply to youth, nor to their non-leader-enrolled families, Parents of youth who join must be informed of the Declaration, and that leaders will encourage a duty to God amongst youth members." So basically the program will try to istill in you values but you do not have to pay attention to them if you do not want to. The Marine family mentioned in the story is evidently more secure and comfortable in their athiesm than some scout leaders are in importance of a Scout's promise to do his duty to God. People who stand for nothing will fall for anything.

CNY quoted one sentence out of three paragraphs, and nothing he quoted contradicts anything I wrote. I said that Sea Scouts was different than Boy Scouts or Venturing in its review of ranks. Take a momemnt GW and actually READ what the handbook portion that CNY quoted says. Nowhere does it say that the scout appears before a board of review of committee members. It says that the scout appears before the Skipper, and the Skipper sends the "application", NOT the scout, to a Bridge of Review that is made of members of the quarterdeck and committee. It does not say all the members of the committee, or JUST the members of the committee. A Group made of some youth officers and some committee members reviews the APPLICATION, not the scout, and instructs the Skipper and the Advancement Chair of their decision. Now, does that sound DIFFERENT than what happens in a Scout Troop or a Venturing Crew or does it not? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

oh ye of little faith Sea Scout Manual Page 83 paragraphs 3-5

I never said that people never make mistakes. In fact in a recent post I pointed out that the BSA like any large corporation has some communications problems. The National office is made of separate divisions that they do not always talk to each other. If you read the Boy Scout materials on Den Chief, they all tell you that the Senior Patrol Leader selects the Den Chief. But the Cub Scout resources say that the Scoutmaster selects the Den Chief. Why the difference. Because Den Chief is a Boy Scout position not a Cub Scout. So when the Cub Scout DIVISION wrote that in the handbook they didn't double check with the Boy Scout division to see if that was correct. Well Venturing and Sea Scouting are separate and when the Boy Scout DIVISION wrote about rank advancement, they didn't check with the Sea Scout folks on what the Sea Scout Manual and Sea Scout training says on the subject. We have a communication error. Which is right, as a Sea Scout Leader we follow the Sea Scout Program. Just as which is right on den chiefs, Since Den Chief is a troop position you follow the Boy Scout Program. Niether situation is a "flaw" in the programs, or the BSA, it is simply a conflict in the communications, so reasoning says that you follow the directions for the program you are in. As it happens, Sea Scouting has the most unique program elements in comparison to the other traditional programs for instance only Sea Scouts can offer any Sea Scout advancement in the Sea Scout ranks, but also all of the Venturing recognitions, AND (if they earned First Class at some time in a troop) the balance of all the Boy Scout Ranks and recognitions. So only as a Sea Scout is there the possibility or earning any and every recognition available in the BSA for a Boy Scout aged youth But it only affects Sea Scouts, which only accounts for about 2% of all scouting membership. A boy in Sea Scouting or Venturing that earns the Eagle rank in those programs is not earning it as a Boy Scout, they earn it as Sea Scouts or as Crew members so the fact that those programs have uniques elements has no effect on troop scouting or the rank. To answer CNY Yes the Committee must approve Eagle and Quartermaster, and yes committee members can sit in on the Bridge of Review, nothing I have posted contradicts those statements. All I said was that Sea Scouting is different.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Nothing in the youth application rejecting the scout. The parents rejecting scouting because it did not support the choice to raise their son as an athiest. The family rejected the values of the BSa program. that is well withing their rights as parents. Just as what values the BSA wants their membership requirements to be is within their rights.

Pappy writes "The only people on this forum qualified to speak their mind about the BSA in this forum are Scouters whose units have either retained or grown their membership. Is that right?" No, I am not saying that anyone should not be able to speak. But if I were to choose who to listen to when it came to improving a program, I would choose to listen to people who had actually been successful at it...wouldn't you? You have said in your own posts that you do not follow the program AND that what you do in not attracting and keeping Scouts. Before I listen to someone's opinion on how to improve the program, they first will have to show me they have some ability to be successful at what they are currently doing. Do you think the scouting volunteers that get recruited to serve on national committees get picked because they are bad at scouting? Pappy continues "Wouldn't you admit that many great BSA programs (Mine excluded of course) fail to build their ranks and in fact lose enrollments through perhaps no fault of their own? In over thirty years as an adult scouter I have never seen a unit with great BSA program that failed to build its ranks. Units with strong programs succeed, units with poor profram deliver fail. Pappy continues "I have retained on average about 20 scouts over 5 years, That's interesting because in another post you said your unit was only three years old. Finally Pappy wrote "But please dont pull that old standard used by every jealous school child and self loathing adult Who do you think YOU are? Please, I know who you "think" you are. I am simply pointing out why your voluminous suggestions on changing a program you do not use into a program that you are not successful at, has not been met with oooh's and ahhhh's.

Sorry, I have been on the road all day. Just because I do not post does not mean I am ingnoring the thread, there are times when I have other things in my life. Yes, I have taken and taught Venturing training. But Venturing, except for the Sea Scout division has no advancment program, so there is no procedure covered in the training for rank advancement. That is why the rank bors are assigned to the committee. Sea Scouting on the other hand has a rank advancment system and so there is a procedure and it does not include the unit committee, other than for reporting the advancement on the advancment report to the council. As far as the Eagle Scout process, that is decided by the council advancment committee in accordance with the policies of the BSA, and so the process may vary slightly from council to council. So if your council decides that the unit committee is involved then that would be the correct process in your council.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

but in BSA there is short shrift paid to its genesis and the actual writings and illustrations of its founders. You would probably like to believe that because it would fit your argument, unfortunatley for you it has no basis in fact. You can find the influences of the BSA founders: Baden-Powell, Boyce, Seton, Beard, and West, in nearly every aspect of the BSA today, from the merit badge program, to the outdoor skills, to the structure of the Councils, the hundreds of Scout camps, Wood Badge. As far as finding their actualk writings, you will not find much of Baden-Powells actual writing in the UK handbooks anymore either. You have to be a little realistic, their writing styles and terminoligies are nearly 100 years old. The handbooks they wrote were written for kids of a different era. But the things they wrots about are still in the handbooks just in modern language. As for their illustrations, the only illustrators in the group are B-P and Seton and most their work is in black and white. B-Ps stuff is not going to be that interesting in todays publications for kids, and Setons was mostly wildlife and there was never much of it in the handbooks except for the first one that he wrote, and then there were only a few. How pray tell would you know the comparisons between their writings and today's scoutings. By your own admission Pappy you have little knowledge or experience with the actual Scouting program and its methods, and you have also admitted that the 'style' of scouting you lead is losing scouts. So where does your expertise on this topic supposedly spring from? You do not use today's program, you do not know much of the program of the early 1900s, and the methods you have created are not keeping youth in the program? If you actully knew of a better way then one would think you would a) be using it and b) be getting getting results from it than you are. But by your own admission you are doing neither the scouting program of the past or present, and you are not retaining scouts with it.

I think Marines are fine Marines and they do their job well and I am greatful for that. But you didn't answer my question. Are there members of the BSA that would not be accepted as members of the USMC?

Neither official or correct, according to the Sea Scout manual and Leader Training.

I have always found BackPacker reviews very helpful. It is going to be upper end stuff. Does a scout have to go that expensive? Not even close. When I started as a Scout leader I bought an very inexppensive top loading nylon pack on an aluminum tube frame for $40. It lasted me over 200 nights of hiking and camping. I had a "good" pair of boots (military jungle boots $29 at an Army/Navy store, they lasted about 2 years, so then I got another pair just like em. Then I learned how to make things smaller to reduce their weight and take up less room. My sleeping bag during warm weather was one I earned as a Tenderfoot Scout (13 years earlier) selling American Seed Company flower and vegetable seeds from an ad on the back of Boys' Life. Then I bought a $69 mummy that I lined with a wool army blanket for the winter. I didn't start paying serious money for camping gear until my mid thirties. The key for good gear today for any beginning camper is: keep it small, keep it light, keep it dry.

"The Crew Committee does the bor" Not sure if that is true in Venturing, I'd need to check, but it's not true in Sea Scouting.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is only one kind of merit badge counselor. One that is Council approved. Once approved thaty can work with any eligible scout they choose. A Scout who joins Venturing or Sea Scouting after earning First Class in the Boy Scout program, can continue to work on all Boy Scout ranks by completeing the same requirements, but using the Venturing or Sea Scouting PORs

Schiff Are there any members of the BSA who would not meet the requirements to be in the Marine Corps? If so, why would it be surprising that there will be some members of the Marines who would not meet the requirememts to be in the BSA? Who gave you the impression that being in one organization would automatically qualify someone to be in the other?

Let me help you. It was in 1993...15 years ago. Am I understanding your post correctly, that you think one reason that new units are not being started is because 15 years ago the council merged. A boy who was a tiger cub at the time is now graduating college. Do you really think that an organization might not want to charter a unit because 15 years ago the council moved its border? Do you know why they had to merge. Because your scouting community did not suppport the scouting program it had. If the neighboring council had not agreed to absorb your debt there would be no scouting in your town. Rather than carrying a grudge of 15 years the 'grey beards' in your district should be making a pilgrimage to the new coucil seat and thank them for saving scouting in their community. In the mean time that local district committee and existing units needs to get a move on, they are not doing much to grow scouting in their area.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

And how many years ago did that happen?

Pappy writes "I am only one of two new units to form in the past three years. Not according to the web site of the council you claim to be in. They listed 2 new units in your district (your unit is not listed) in the three years, BUT they show 49 new units in the Council over the last three years. now with 6 districts in your council, (and if we exclude the district you say your unit is in) then the other districts are starting an averge of three units per district per year. The national average is 4 new units per district. So excluding your district your council is not doing too badly in that arena. Your district however is starting fewer than 2 new units a year. Seems to be a very localized problem when you look at the actual figures.

Sorry It was not clear that you were an adult leader. In that case since you do not believe that there is an abusive behavior perhaps you should tak with the individual abpout your concerns that his pinching and what ever other behavior you witnessed is not appropriate?

So then why do you think you are not following the Outdoor Code?

The BSA advancement procedure is to present recognitions as soon as possible after they are erned, for instance ..the next meeting. This is true of all recognitions, merit badges, renaks, POR etc. You can hold the pocket certificates for the Court of Honor.