Bob White

Clear communications requires responsibility on the parts of both the sender and reciever. Just as there really is no such thing as "one size fits all", not every rule, policy, or procedure will be understood by ever person who read it no matter how it is written. I agree that there are typos in some of the literature and even some information errors, most are minor or can be resolved simply by comparing the information to other resources. Many of these erros result from the fact that communication within any corporatioon the size of the BSA is a constant challenge. As you are aware program Divisions within the BSA do not always play well together. The bigger problem seems to be misunderstandings caused by the background, personality, preconceptions, or personal habits of the reader. We as volunteers come from a very wide variety of backgrounds and not everyone is going to get the same meaning out of the same phrase and will often go for what they want the meaning to be rather than take the time to determine what the message actually is. Think of it as empathetic reading. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's true. The troop where I served as Scoutmaster had (many years prior) an Air Scout unit that was actually a Senior Scout Patrol. A few of the scouts went directly from that unit into the Air Force. One them is still involved in Scouting here and is a retired USAF officer.

Private message to Oak Tree.

1980 1st course (previous version) Yes 8 Staffings (previous version) Yes 10, Yes 8, Not really 5, Yes 7 (Current version) Yes 9, Yes 10

Too funny Oak Tree. I explained there were errors in some BSA literature do to miscommunications between divisions several posts ago in this thread. I also explained the overlap between the program and how only Sea Scout registered youth could earn Sea Scout ranks. But I am glad that emb021 was able to explain it in a way you could understand.

Yes, they would be able to do that if they chose to but as Emb021 pointed out there would be no need for two units such as that. A Sea Scout is a specialized form of a crew (but a crew is not a form of a ship) so some members of the ship could choose to follow a Sea Scout track while others followed a Venturing track. Or they could all follow both, for instance during boating season follow Sea Scouting and in the off-season do Venture activities in the other Venture Program areas. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If it were viewed in 3-D Venturing would be flat disc and Sea Scouting a pillar standing within the circle. But thank Emb021, it's funny how some are willing to attack one person's understanding of the program but not two. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yes, a similar relationship but not exactly the same.

Perhaps a close though not exact comparison is the relationship between Varsity Teams and Boy Scout troops. Though Varsity is a part of Boy Scouts it is a separate unit with separte charters and memberships. But Varsity Scouts can earn Boy Scout Ranks and recognitions even though Boy Scouts cannot earn the Varsity recognitions without being on a Varsity Team. The relationship of Sea Scouting to Venturing and Venturing to Boy Scouting is similar in nature especially for boys entering Venturing/Sea Scouting after earning first Class Rank in a Troop. The relationship between Venturing ans Sea Scout has had its political turmoil, and while the relationship is still not a perfect one things are settling down. Largely due I feel to the stability of Sea Scouting and the relative chaos of Venturing. Sea Scouting is only one year younger than the Boy Scout program, it went from a stand alone division, to part of Exploring, to a stand alone division, to a relationship with Venturing. And many of the volunteers from the Ships through the National Sea Scout Committee preferred being an independent Division. So it has taken them awhile to get comfortable in the new relationship. But I think most trained leaders in both programs now have an understanding of how the two relate, and how to make the best use of each program. I know when I took our Regions Powderhorn Course Director Development course a couple years ago the majority of the participants were from the Sea Scout Program.

elizdaddio Lots of questions to answer but I will try to get to them al. It's not a problem if the location for a troop diner is selling alcohol as long as no one in the unit is drinking it. Alcohol may not be comsumed by adults in the unit when scouts are present, this would include the parents. As an example the CO for our ship srves alcohol in their dinning room where our ship meets every month or two for a formal dinner. During that time while other dinners have drinks, the leaders of the ship and any parents present do not. We participate in boat races that often have beer available for the racers afterwards. We do not participate in that "fellowship" opportunity but go do other things. But to have alcohol on BSA property or when youth members are present is a violation of BSA safety policies. No, as parents you have no authority in the approval or removal of any adult leader in any position. You have influence but no authority. The CC is approved by the Charter organization Representative and the Institutional Head of the chartering organization, not by the parents or the committee members. Again, you can influence that choice, but you have no authority to make the choice. The same is true of all other registered positions in the unit. Unfortunatley the Dictator Scoutmaster is all too common especially among the newest and the oldest leaders. There is little you can do about it other than becoming the persopn in the organization who has the authority to create change, or to make the change yourself by going to a different unit. If the charter organization head is comfortable with the status quo then the chances of change happening is very slim. It would seem that the most likely way to make your feelings known is to have a parents meeting with the Scoutmaster and Committee to make your feelings known about the program, and ask that changes be considered. If the CC and Scoutmaster do not seem open to those changes then I see no other course for the families than to leave the troop. Units that have leaders who follow the program do not have these kinds of problems.

Oak Tree here is what I've shared based on the Sea Scout manual and the Sea Scout Leader training as well as Venturing training and the Venturing manuals. You tell me whaty is incorrect. 1) The advancement review process in Sea Scouts is different than what it is in Boy Scouts and Venturing. 2) To earn Quartermaster you have to complete the rank requirements of the three preceeding ranks which include participation in activities that are specific to a Sea Scout Ship. 3) Ships and Crew although both divisions of Venturing are not the same, and have separate registrations according to the BSA membership applications. If the Advancment Guide is correct in listing QM with awards that any Venturer can earn, then that is not supported in any Venturing or Sea Scout training or program resource or any other BSA program training or advancement resource. Just as when the Cub Scout Leader Book and Den Chief Handbook said that the Scoutmaster chose the Den Chief, the problem here is likely the failure to communicate between Scouting Divisions. A problem within scouting that I have often agreed existed. But this statement appears in only one location, but information to the contrary exists in multiple locations. What has your training in Venturing or Sea Scouting said about this?

Ship is a separate registration selection than Crew for both youth and adult members. Post and Explorer are not available selections on the adult or youth BSA membership application since a Post is not a part of the traditional BSA but is part of Learning for Life, a separate corporation. Yes, a sponsor for multiple Posts would have a separate Post number for each group.

Sigh...Sea Scout Leader Specialized training is a course that "gives participants the the information they need for understanding and using the Sea Scout Manual"(at least that is what is says in the the trainers instructions, when I taught the course a few months ago.) Seabadge which takes place over the course of a single weekend rather than a week-long or two-weekends like Wood Badge. While it has some leadership skills it is mostly the sharing of program and program managemet information between participants. "The Seabadge Conference program first presents the overall Aims and Methods of Sea Scouting and how they relate to the purposes of Scouting. It then deals briefly with instructional methods and techniques. We then get into the key issues where most of the conference time will be spent: motivational theory, management versus leadership, planning, problem solving, decision making, management principles, and finally, behavioral theory as another view before tying all this together as the basis of management and leadership." seascout.org Officers in our ship who have attended the training say that it is primarily program management and administative skills. But being a conference style the content of each course varies with the knowledge and experiences brought by the mix of participants. Why not go and enjoy, you can determine for yourself what the course was about after you go? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No one said the uniform had to bought new. There are an ample supply of uniforms available on e-bay, through garage sales, thrift shops, neighbors who had kids in scouting, that finding a useable experienced uniform is not that hard to do. Just having the people in a single unit dressed uniformily is not the purpose of the Boy Scout Uniform.

"O'course, by that rationale, Sea Scouts can't award Star or Life despite what ACP&P says. After all, requirement #1 for Star and Life is "be active in your troop and patrol". Therefore, you must be registered in a troop, and, ergo, not pursuing Boy Scouting Advancement in a Sea Scout Ship." If it weren't for the overwhelming amount of information eplaining that once a Scout has arned Fiorst Class in a troop he can continue to earn the upper three ranks as a member of a Venturing Crew or a Sea Scout Ship, including Scoutmaster training, Venturing Leader training, Sea Scout leader training, The venturing leaqder Handbook, the Sea Scout Leader handbook, to name just a few. But getting back to what started this. You said that the committee did the board of review on a ship and I said that the process on a ship was different, and there has been ample evidence to show that 'eh'.

I do not expect a child to have completely formulated a personal understanding or appreciation of God's presence in his life. And the the youth membership does not require that of the youth. It requires the adult to promise they will give DEFINITE ATTENTION to hios religious development and tells the parent that Scouting will do so too. When I was a Scoutmaster, and before the Declaration of Religious Principle was a part of the application, I had the parents of a Scout invite me to their home to discuss a problem. The troop was sponsored by a church, and we started meetings with an invocation, we said grace at meals, and we did a short religious reflection on outings. The parents asked me over to explain that they were athiests and that they did not promote or criticize the existence of a God to their children but left it up to them to decide for themselves. Their concern was that the church or the committee would kick their son out of the troop. I explained that that would not happen. There are enough adults still on the path to discovering God that I did not expect a child to have fully formed an understanding. I could however not alter the advancement requirements for their son, which required that a scout live the Scout values which include Reverence and Duty to God. I suggested that if they would work with their son (and I or others would be willing to assist if asked) to find a way to try and understand aspects of religious belief that his advancement could continue unhindered and he could continue to explore his personal religion through Scouting. Sadly a month later the parents withdrew their son from Scouting. I had the opportunity to tell this story to the director for the BSA Relationships Division and he thought that was an excellent way to try and meet the needs of the scout and still maintain the values of the program. It is a difficult topic but belief and reverence to God has always been, and will likely always be, a cornerstone of the traditional Scouting programs. I for one am glad of that.

Seabadge (one word) is advanced Ship administration training for adult Sea Scout leaders.

Gold Winger Most Scouts still come from a Webelos den already in at least the uniform shirt. Slouchhat I do not understand your point. If you are not a BSA unit, then what does it matter that you can spend less money to not look like a Boy Scout than a Boy Scout spends TO look like a Boy Scout?

Momofscout, It is very unlikely that your son will be granted an extension. That usually only happens when a medical condition renders the scout incapable of working on his advancement.3 Your son's only chance is to be able to show that the A) the requirement was judged incorrectly, or B) the Council did not follow the appeal process correctly. So the important things you need to note are; 1)When were you informed of the appeal process? 2)When did you recieve a written statement from the bor stating what requirement was not completed and how in a objective meqasurable way could the requirement be completed according to the BSA requirement (be aware that the bor cannot require the scout to do anything not stated in the BSA requirement.) If you were not given written appeals instruction after the first board, or if the board required your son to do something beyond the requirement then your son has a chance of the board's decision being overturned.

and here is what an official uniform looks like, you cannot possibly believe thay look the same. http://www.boyscouttrail.com/i/boyscout/uniform.jpg Who could not spend less and look different? Shoot, I could spend under $25 and not look like a Boy Scout just as easily as you spent under $50 to not look like one.

I would agree that any male or female Venturing member can earn Quartermaster, just as any boy can earn Eagle IF they meet the BSA prescribed requirements. But to do so they have to go through the Sea Sout Rank advancement. Unlike Ranger which is a stand-alone award, Quartermaster is a rank. Like with Eagle you cannot skip ranks, you must go through the progressions. In order to earn the Sea Scout ranks you must be registered as a Sea Scout,(see Apprentice requirements 1 and 3, Ordinary requirements 3-5, Able requirements 3&4). While Sea Scouts are Venturers the registration for Crew and Ship are separate, the advancement requirementss say you must be a part of a Ship. Any Venturer can earn Quartermaster if they meet all the advancememnt requirements.Read requirement 3 and 5 for the Quartermaster rank and you will see that membership in a ship as well as the completion of the preceeding ranks is a requirement. There is nothing in the Venturing Handbook of Venturing training that makes Quartermaster available to a Venturer who is not a member of a Ship, There is nothing in the Sea Scout Manual or training that makes Quartermaster available to a Venturer who is not registered in a Ship. So that would leave the rank available to any person that met the requirements, just as with any other BSA rank. The requirements for QM say you have to be a member of a Ship, therefore ...a Sea Scout.

Most boys who join Boy Scouting come from the Webelos Program. Because of that the majority already have the Boy Scout uniform. As for the question of staying long enough to make the uniform purchase worth it...that will depend almost entirely on the quality of the local troop meetings and activities, not the cost of the uniform. If you want parents to see more value in the uniform then unit leaders need to show them quality in the program delivery.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Beavah writes "Oh, yah, and BTW, yeh didn't get the earlier bit right either, eh? Since the Quartermaster Award is a Venturing recognition, it may be earned by any young man or young woman registered as a Venturer." That is also incorrect. Quartermaster is a rank and can only be earned by Venturers who are registered as Sea Scouts, and complete the preceeding ranks or Apprentice, Ordinary, and Able. I you read the Venturing Handbook it defines Quartermaster as "the highest rank in Sea Scouting (See the Sea Scout Manual)" A Sea Scout is in Venturing, but a Venturer is not a Sea Scout. A Venturer who is not a Sea Scout cannot earn any Sea Scout Rank.

With only 29% of direct contact leaders attending basic training, shouldn't we be more concerned about integrity than waist size?

My uniform shirts lasted about 8 years each. They got worn about twice a week So that is over 800 wearings for $40 dollars or about $5 a year. Seems like a good value to wear the official uniform.