Bob White

Training only "helps" if the trainee is willing to practice and apply the information he recieved. So participants who do not practice and apply the information offered them through the various BSA training and resources are no more skilled than the volunteers who never attended.

"Hey, hoorah! That's a first. I thought yeh to be an advocate of the , where the point was to do exactly what you say can't be done. I'm sorry I misunderstood yeh before. I agree with this completely." HWy can you not discuss a point I raise without distroring in in your repost? Where did I say that the training Development was done by committee discussion? Where did I say tat I support some kind of franchise model of delivering scouting? I used the word method because saying using "the method of the Methods" sounded a bit awkward. But as I tried to explain since every situation is different then every response is unique. What remains constant are the tools, observation, evaluation, empathetic communication, coaching, mentoring, counseling, problem solving methodology, knowledge of available resources. These and other tools are already part of the scouting program and its leader development courses. They are skills that are covered over and over agin in various BSa training courses, print and video resources, Scouting and Boy's Life articles, etc. If you do not believe that these skills can be learned through training, then what are the chances of it being learned through a few anecdotal posts? Why not give the Methods of Scouting their due for what they can help with? And why not just discuss these points without misrepresenting what I write?

GNX Guy is right, although many of the uniform patches and accessories are BSA supply. My Point being there are a varioety of Unofprms in the BSA, not all are the same price, none must be purchased new, there are many ways available to get experienced uniforms and "expensive" is a subjective measurement.

"Emotional support does not come from a text or class." True, but knowing how to recognize and how give emotional support is a learned skill. If it werent't then there are a lot of needless college courses and books on the topic. And while there is no one way to handle these things there are specific tools that can be emplyed, Such as a few that you have mentioned such as observationand evaluation and empatheic communication, all of which are taught in BSA leadership training courses.

Of course not, eh? But there's a difference. As yeh mention, WB21C was developed, like much of the BSA materials, in a very large-group, committee-style way, eh? Whoa Beavah, Where did I say it was done in a committee like way? All I said was that it was done largely by BSA volunteers. You made the incorrect assumption as to how it was done. I appreciate you want to share recipes, but given the multitude of scenariors and the varied ways that each could be addressed isn't the premise too vague? It doesn't even take in the huge variety of causes for a similar emotional response that a scout might have. So just saying "I had an upset scout and this is what I did" will not help another scout unless he has the same cause to the same problem, and has the same response to the same applied 'remedy'. At least a food recipe can be repeated over and over because all the ingredients can be controled to be the same every time. Dealing with indivudual characteristics and individual situations is not going to work like that. You rarely have the same ingredients, so what you need is an arsenal of usable tools that can be applied as needed...hence the Methods of Scouting. You will not find how to deal with scouts in the G2SS, or a dutch oven cookbook, because that is not what they are designed to do. You will find the skills you need to apply in the Methods of Scouting because that is what they are designed to affect.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think we have already established the "expensive" is a relative term and not interpreted the same by every person depending on their buying habits and finacial abilities. And not all official uniforms cost the same. For instance the entire Sea Scout Dress Whites cost far less that the Boy Scout uniform shirt alone when purchased new. And since no one ever said you had to buy a new uniform there AND since there are plenty of experienced official uniform pieces available for far less that what they cost new. So the argument that uniform is expensive or unaffordable is really very weak at best.

Using the Patrol Method as a way to get scouts into a social group that they are likey to be comfortable in is an excellent idea. There is a way actually where you can get scouts in to patrol gropupsing with at least 3 or 4 buddies if not more. It is a fairly simple process that used to be taught in the Scoutmaster basic training courses in the 80's. It involves having each scout write the names of a specific number of scouts they would like to be with in a patrol on a slip[ of paper with thier name at the top. The number of scouts is determined by how many patrols you expect to develop and how many scouts you have. For instance with 15 Scouts you might make 2 or 3 patrols depending on the results of the process. So you might have each scout list 6 others they would like to be in a patrol with. You then create a chart with the names of all the scouts across the top to label columns, and down the left side to label rows. Take the list that each scout made go across their row and pot an x in the column of each scout the name. By the end of the excercise you will patterns in the colums that will help you easily formulate patrols where scouts end up with several of the scouts they want to be in a patrol with. This formula also helps identify possible social problems , is for instance you have a scout with no checks in his column, this is a red flag. For some reason no other scout is interested in being in a patrol with this young man. You may not have observed this problem for some time or not understood why there is friction in his patrol had you not taken this simple survey of sorts. You now have the opportunity to discover the problem and help resolve issues with the scout or his pers early on. But again good use of using the existing methods of scouting to help scouts adapt to the troop and patrol socially.

No training is not enough (and I never wrote that it was). As I posted, one would need to know AND FOLLOW the program. kKnowing without applying is worthless. So just knowing will never be enough. Does one size fit all? Never. That is why the Scouting program is not a one size fits all program. But again you would need to know what the program Methods were and how to apply them in order to understand that. No one who actully knows the Scouting program thinks of it as static an inflexible. That is smoke screen used by some as an excuse for not using the program Methods. The truth is the Methods are fluid allowing them to be used when applicable for the activity or situation at hand. But the very focus of the Methods are to positively affect character, citizenship and fitness. so how could the use of the Methods not have a positive result if applied correctly?

There have always been volunteers involved in the development of scout training courses. As an example there were 50 volunteers invoved in the development of Wood Badge for the 21st Century. This is not something the BSA suddenly decided to do. It would not be needed for someone to do am exceptional job as a program leader just to follow the prgram Methods. They are not that difficult to do. But you have to know what they actually are, and as we know the vast majority of leaders are untrained. If parents want scouting to be able to help the children grow in healthy ways they need to demand that scout leaders get trained and follow the training. The reason things like Scoutmaster conferences and Scoutmaster giving individual coaching and mentoring sound so new and groundbreaking to some people is that they are unaware what the scouting program elements and Methods actually are. Consider the Methods of Boy Scouting for instance . What methods do not address a scout's healthy mental or emotional development?

So if any method that is important and debated should be "required" then which of the Methods would that not apply to? I the Patrol method not important enough? Has the Values not been debated? How about Outdoor Activities, is that not just as important as uniformimg? Are you actually saying that by adding the word "REQUIRED" to the Methods that more leaders would suddenly know how to use them and would implement them in the program? The BSA has already said 'The Methods are how the scouting program is done' you would think that would be enough? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I believe that I did but you discounted it as not being "outside" of the program. The BSA program itself is filled with element that when followed contribut to the wellness of youth mentally as well as physically. Of course it relys on the leader knowing and using the scouting program. Just look at the Methods used in the three traditional programs,most have a direct effect on a youths self-esteem and self-confidence both of which are major contributors to a youths ability to deal with social situations. In a unit where leaders understand and use the scouting methods the individual youths are being observed and evaluated for both strengths and needs, and then the various Methods are applied to help the scout grow and develop into a healthy individual. But keep in mind Scout leaders are not trained to be social workers or to be able to solve any and every mental health situation. It is important for leaders, parents, teachers, etc. to know when a problem is beyond their area of expertise and to refer the individual to resources that are better suited to help them. Since we work with OTHER PEOPLE'S children is is important that we turn to the parent or guardian to determine the next step. We can certainly assist them by informing them of community resources that have more knowledge in this are than we do. But every case is not for us to resolve. The best thing we cn do to help scouts grow emeotionally is to know and follow the scouting program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"We're talkin' about extra support needed by individual boys on occasion, eh? Not just the regular supports offered by "the Program". No you're not. All the examples you gave Beavah are regular elements in Scouting? >Scoutmaster conferences >Coaching and mentoring from the Scoutmaster >SM sharing concerns with parents. >SPL coaching PLs There is nothing outside of the scouting program in any of those things. All are existing elements of Scouting. The only thing you mentioned that is outside of scouting was setting up counseling for the scout and that is WAY out of line for a scout leader to do. Informing scouts and/or parents of available resources is one thing, but arranging the counceling session is another thing entirely. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Stop giving them money for food. Let them earn their own money and buy their own food. They will soon learn an appreciation for what they are wasting.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why does the boy have to advenace? Not has to...gets to...just like other kids.

Please identify ANY Scouting Method that IS required? The Methods are the unique program elements that make the scouting program work. If someone was only going to follow Methods that are "required" then they have a real problem since NONE of them are "required". But if one was not going to use the elements of Scouting as a scout leader then the question needs to asked of that person "Why did you volunteer and say you would follow the program, if you do not intend to?" I think most parents expect the leaderto be matue enough to do what is right as a scout leader whether it is "required" or not.

Actually Dave I wasn't referring to your post.

Knowing the needs and characteristics of the scouts in the troop is the Scoutmasters respponsibility. The Committee should be testing the Scoutmaster. The Scouting program, at every program level is designed to help give youth emotional and social support, that is why it is imporant for a leader to know and use the "program". The elements of scout have an interconnected purpose. Adventure and advancement fopr instance help toi develope a youths self-reliance and self-esteem, but only work when done correctly. Patrol Method helps to develop team work and other social skills. The uniform plays a role in developing self esteem and good grooming habits. All the parts of the scouting program help to develop scouts mentally and emotionally IF you follow the program.

Do you mean Den Chiefs which is a Boy Scout positioon of responsibility? Because Denner is Cub Scout position in a Den....held by cub scout aged boys.

Can anyone think of a knock-off that cannot be purchased for far, far, less than the authentic item? It just seems so silly to say that I got a shirt that looks ALMOST like the officail uniform for 5 times less". Do imitation Rolex watches ever cost MORE than real Rolex, or even the same as one? Does a knock-off of Pro-Team sportswear ever cost MORE that the licensed products? Of course official goods will cost more, who would have expected them not to? And where is the victory in paying less for something that is not the same as the authentic item? Is that actually difficult to do with any product? Heck you can by something thats's not really a computer but looks sorta like one for a lot less than a real computer but what have you actually accomplished? If you just kinda wanna sorta look like a Scout almost, then buy clothing that is kinda sorta almost like a Scout uniform.

Just recently the BSA has put more emphasis on regular commissioner visits, for decades now the model for unit commissioning was that of the wise and friendly family physician making house calls. The problem is that even in that model it was often the case that the doctor had to spend most of his or her time visiting sick patients and not the well ones. In fact in over 30 years of unit leadrship, in 3 councils and 4 districts, I cannot recall more than one perhaps two visits from a UC the entire time. I could not even tell you the name of our current UC or if we even have one. I take comfort in the fact that there are units who need them more and I presume they are with those units helping out. If one should call and what to visit we will be glad to welcome them. I we should need one I will assume they will come when we invite them. Until then...we are doing fine and I hope they are as well.

Why are so many people intent on using partial quotes out of context? What I said FireKat was that "In the case of a disagreement on a forum or even in person, unless one party uses physical or social position as a thread to gain concession it would not fit the definition of bullying." My example was specific to the difference between a disagreement an bullying. As far your statement that what I said would lead to more people to contemplate suicide, how could you possibly make such a connection? At what point did I suggest that anyone brush off the concerns of the victim. I never even talked about that? Here is what Webster says is a bully- "one habitually cruel to others who are weaker" Again it requires the use of power over another. Is campaigning against someone bullying, not by definition. Do you consider any person to ever run for a public office as a bully? If someone forced a person to vote a specific way under thread of harm, that would be a bully. If after an election a Scoutmaster altered the result so that the person who won the vote did not get the office, simply because the SM did not want that scout to win, that would be bullying. Now please, if you choose to cut and paste my words, use the entire quote and use it in context. I think that is a fair request. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bullying by definition requires a difference in power as Beavah described. In the case of a disagreement on a forum or even in person unless one party uses physical or social position as a thread to gain concession it would not fit the definition of bullying. On a forum such as this for instance every poster has equal power or lack of power with the exception of the moderators and the side owner. none of whome have shown eveidence of inflicting their power on others for the purpose of personal gain or humiliation. In a unit (as in school) when a youth or adult useses their superior strenth or position as a way to inflict physical or emotional harm on another person that would fit the definition of being a bully would it not?

Scoutreach works fairly well in our council, it has given many boys in parts of the council an opportunity to be exposed to the values and fun of scouting that might not normally have that chance, due to the economics or the resources of their neighborhood. While some Scoutreach units can and do look and function as a "typical" unit most have more unique structures. It all depends on what is available in the way of resources and leadership for that particular unit. But the goal is to use as many Methods as possible in order to achieve the Aims and Mission of Scouting just as with any other unit.

[Defensive retort no longer needed] (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

"Dont say you are doing something by making kids aware, really do something to stop it." Expecting anyone to be able to remove bullying from society is not logical. The BSA teaches scouts what to do in case of a house fire, but there is no way they can stop house fires from happening. Nor can the BSA guarantee that the methods taught will stop every fire. We teach scouts how to recognize and react to contact with poison ivy, but there is no way the BSA can eradicate poison ivy or guarantee that the steps you take can cure the problem every time. There are MANY skills taught by the BSA to help scouts recognize and react to problems they may face, None of which are going to stop the problem from every occurring nor are any guaranteed to work single every time. But it is a step in the right direction, and since it is a part of of our society that can have a negative effect on the youth we serve then why not give them some basic tools for dealing with it? Ed When you are the responsible adult and you you not only know that the bullying is taking place but you condone it and pretend not to know about it, then you are indeed one of the bullies. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)