Bob White

Victonate, Stick to your training and the resources of the BSA. While Beavah's explanation is thorough it has little resemblance to the actual contents of the Troop Committee Guide or the Troop Committee Challege training course. Follow the resources of the BSA to give you the most accurate information the Scouting program, and you will be just fine. Remember it is about teamwork more than who is in charge, but when it comes down tto the final say, the CR and the CC are COE and President of the Board of the Scouting program at the unit level. Kenk The program of Troop and Patrol activities is lead by youth. The Scouting program at the Unit, Council, and National level is lead by adults. BW

Ed, Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for members of their troops. In many cases a scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives. I would like you to campare that explanation with. "To charter a BSA unit, there needs to be a minimum number of adults signed up as leaders. There also needs to be minimum number of boys. Adult Association has to happen!" And tell me what is the biggest difference between the two? Adult association does not happen simply because adults and youth are in the same room. Nor are they about efforts of the youth to interact with adults. Adult association is about adults associated with the unit taking real interest in each individual Scout. Is it required? No more than any other Method. Is it vital in order to deliver a quality scouting program? No less than any other Method. No Method is "required", yet no Method can be left out, and still have a quality Scouting program.

Neither of you have explained what you think the Adult Association Method is, our what leads you to believe that it is the only Method required by the BSA. One of you seems to suggest that it is required because you have to have adults on the charter or adults at meetings and neither is true. I admitted to not understanding either of you, and I would appreciate some more info. What is it aboy the adult association Method that you believe makes it required?

CO's are things and cannot make decisions. The people who represent the charter organizations interests in Scouting are the Institutional Head, the Charter Organizational Representative, and the Committee Chairperson. The Scoutmaster and all other adults are selected and approved by the CC and either the IH or CR. While the committee can advise on these selections only the IH CR and CC have the authority to determine who the leaders will be. Victonate, trust your training not strangers on the Internet.

So if I am understanding you correctly Ed your understanding of the Adult Association Methods has to do with having enough adults on the charter to have a scout unit. Is that accurate? If not then could you explain what your understanding of the Adult Association Method is.

Actually that is not what the policy states. Do what made you think the Adult Association Method is "required"?

The Adult Association Method is no more "required" than any other method. Perhaps you were confusing Adult Asssociation with two-deep leadership, and they are not the same thing.

The program is designed with layers of supervision. If you are talking about enforcing "BSA Policies" the first layer is the integrity of the individual. The next layer is the Unit leader or Unit Committee. The next layer is the Commissioning team, the next layer is a local BSA professional, the final layer is the BSA National office. As far as program quality...the first layer is the integrity of the individual. The next layer is the unit leader, then the Unit Committee Chair. The next layer is the Commissioning team, and the last layer is back to the Committte e Chair and either the CR or IH.

I agree with Beavah that the CC should not micro-manage the Scoutmaster. But it is indeed your role to evalute the troop program and its leaders. One of the great advantages you have of being new Victonate, and having just gone through the training, is you probably recall a lot of what you learned. That's a good thing. You probably remember that the committee is the troops "Board of Directors", and part of the way you support quality program is by making sure you have quality leadership. As everyone has suggested, work with the current scoutmaster to get back on track, but remember that your responsibility is to the quality of the program for the scouts and the CO, not to maintaining a poor leader for the sake of of not hurting his feelings. Every adult volunteer has a term limit, it's called "at the pleasure". The CR serves "at the pleasure" of the institution head. The CC (you) serves "at the pleasure" of the IH and CR. All other adult volunteers serve at "at the pleasure" of the CC and either the CR or IH. While you should always try to work through cooperation and motivation, at some point when the decision comes down to keep the current leadership or chang, you as the CC are 50% of the decision making team, and the IH or CR is the other half. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

They are are presentations to the parents of Scouts explaining how they can help to financially support local scouting. There are countless different prentations out there some good some, well.....less good. Some councils have there own scripts, some give their presenters key points and let them do their own thing. Some do both.

Yes the CC and the CR select and approve the Scoutmaster, while the Scoutmaster does not select or approve the CC or CR. But a healthier way to look at things is not that the Scoutmaster works FOR you but they you work TOGETHER to deliver the Scouting program. But you are right that the CC has a responsibility to evaluate the unit program ad decde with the CR if leadership changes are needed. If you are confident of what needs to be done to deliver the program in a way that meets the goals of the BSA and the charter organiztion then you have the responsibility and the authority to make it happen.

I do not believe you will find that statistical breakdown anywhere. In fact I don't believe you will find that the BSA even cares as to what age a scout earns any of the upper ranks, as long as it is prior to their 18th Birthday. Achieving Eagle is a personal goal for a Scout to choose. It is not the goal of the BSA program, National, or council, and it should not be the goal of the unit. As it is the highest rank achievable in Boy Scouting National does keep statistics on how many scouts earn it, but I believe that is all they are interested in tracking about the scout (besides the number of volunteer hours involved,)

Yes, it is possible to complete Webelos in 6 months. Talk with the Den Leader, there is a 6 month program schedule in the back of the Webelos Leader Handbook. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

A good friend of Baden-Powell's was an author by the name of Rudyard Kipling. He was a huge supppporter of the B-P's young scouting movement and gave him permission to use the the characters of the Jungle Book Story for his Cub Program. There are other elements of Scouting from Kipling such as the often used Kim's Game, taken from a Kipling Short Story titled "Kim", Which B-P used as way to sharpen scouts observational skills. The story of Akela in the early cub days took the jungle book story and placed in in a early american setting making Akela an American Indian rather than an East Indian.

This is where knowledge of early Scouting comes in handy, not to be able to recreate it but to separate fact from fiction. Early cub scouts did not wear the Boy Scout uniform. Cub Scouting began in 1930 with a blue uniform not much different in overall looks than todays uniform. Early cub scouting was heavily based on Indian lore. In fact the original story of Akela was that he was a young indian boy, son of Chief Arrow of Light. As an infant being carried by his mother they were attacked while gathering firewood by three indians from a rival tribe. His mother was killed and Akela was left to wander the woods alone where he was taken in and raised by wolves, etc etc. As a Cub in the 60s the American Indian was not made fun of in ceremonies, they were revered for ther skills, their understanding of bnature, and their bravery, just as they are in todays ceremonies. The same is true by the way are our founding fathers. You will find far more patriotic themed ceremonies in the "Staging Ceremonies for Dens and Packs", than you will find Indian themed ceremonies. So you see Pappy your return to the "origins" of Cubbing is going back to elements that did not exist and ignores the ones that did. You are far less a traditionalist than you are a historical revisionist.

Lots of reasons. Think like a child. Weren't you fascinated by Indians, and cowboys, and Knights of the Roundtable, astronauts, lion tamers, and buccaneers. These were pople of adventure and daring and bravery. They were explorers and outdoorsmen and they capture the imagination of kids. Cubbing and even to some degree Boy Scouting use these images to help share the positive attributes in way that draws the interest and attention of the youth.

Without actually seeing the ceremony no one can accurately tell you if the ceremony was proper or improper, that is going to be a subjective opinion no matter what. Indian lore has been a part of the BSA program since its beginning. As a youth I was member of an Indian dance team and I am part Indian, (Not a lot but enough to be a owner of a casino in some states), and I have yet to see a ceremony in scouting involving indian lore that I found offensive, As far as does the BSA condone it, there are THOUSANDS of scout units across the country, they are not required to tell the BSA what ceremonies they use. So I am sure the BSA was not in any way knowledgable of that or any other ceremony that took place in the country on that night or any other. The BSA does make ceremonies iedeas available to scout units a few of which include indian lore. I am also pretty sure that an arrow is not a sacred Indian symbol. So while it is obvious that you did not care for the ceremony it is highly possible that nothing really wrong happened. If you are concerned that this is a serious issue then you should share your concerns with the committee chairman or cubmaster. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Thanks for the shout out Eamonn, I am glad to hear they will be used. I am anxious to find out how they work for you. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Methods, Aims and Mission are the stuff that the program is made of. The Poices and Guidelines are rules and regulations of the BSA and the CO. We follow the scouting program (Methods, Aims, Mission) and abide by the rules of the CO and the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Think of it it like this. Would you let your child drink chocolate milk all day long all weekend long. Probably not. Why? Because it is mostly sugar and is not nutritionally as good as other foods would be. While some hot foods will help a person keep warm especially after times of low muscle activity (first thing in the morning after musscles have been at rest) there are better ways and better things to eat during the day than a lot of hot chocolate. Hot Tea, warm Gatorade, oatmeal, would do as good as job as hot chocolate. But given the choice what will scouts choose? Hot chococlate of course, because we are all animals and we wil repeat actions that give us pleasure and hot chocolate tastes great!. Many times I have seen units use hot chocolate as a crutch to keep scouts from complaining. If a scout is allowed hot chocolate any time they are cold, how often are they going to "feel" cold? All the time. We would give each scout a cup of hot chocolate with Breakfast and then on Saturday they were given 2 or 3 packages per person (depending on the temperature) and they could use them when they wanted. We kept boiling water available with tea, and oatmeal. But moving around will keep them warmer than sitting still and drinking hot chocolate all day. Greater warmth comes from good nutrition and muscle activity than from drinking hot chocolate. BW

A few tips I will toss in. One key to staying warm is staying dry, Have him follow the packing tips in the Boy Scout Handbook, among them is that his pack and even his tote, should be a bag full of bags. Have him take various size Ziplock bags and group his clothing and gear and packege EVERYTHING in zip lock bags . This will help keep dry things dry, and wet things away from dry things. Be aware that many types of plastic get brittle in cold temperatures. If you has everything in ziplocks then he can just take a gym back or duffel bag rather tha he plastic tote. Remind him that heat rises, it is important that he uderstands that whether awake or asleep he is lossing body heat from the top of his head. This makes his hat VERY important, It is his regulator for cotroling heat retention. When he gets too warm the first thing toi do is remove the hat, just as if he becomes cold (or when sleeping at night) he should have his hat on. (ive also found it helpful to have a pair a light pair of fleece gloves to wear at night. There are two schools of thought on this next one. Some believe that changing ALL your clothes at night is the best way to stay warm. Some think not. My experience has been the former. Clothes trap moisture in the fibers or in the open cells that at night cause a refrigeration effect, I take the right bag or bags for the weather and wear only some gym shorts a hat and gloves to bed and I stay very warm. My clothes for the next day are in the bottom on my bag so they are warm in the morning or if I need to dress quickly in the night . Finally, the interior of tents are not made warmer by zipping them up tight. The purpose of tents are to give shelter from the wind and precipitation. Zipping them up tight blocks air flow and creates frost and snow like conditions inside the tent which then makes you colder. Pitch the tent with the rear end of it pointing into the wind, then leave the flaps open part way front and back to allow for ventilation, this will reduce or eliminate that frost effect. Winter camping is an adventure I hope he has a fun and healty time out there. One more thing, He should really limit his hot chocolate intake. it is really not the best thing to have out there. It is tempting for kids and is often used by adults to "keep em happy" but as far as being helpful for staying warm or efficient for the body's energy, Hot Chocolate is not a good choice.

John, It says "conduct a Scouting Program" it does not mention the Co's program. Well, what makes it a scouting program? According to the BSA its the Methods of Scouting that differentiates the Scouting program from other programs. And it does not give priority of the CO's policies and guidelines over those of BSA's. It gives them equal importance. It says when conducting the Scouting Program that the rules of both the CO and BSA are to be followed.

And replied to in the same way.

It is rare that I disagree with FScouter or OGE along with a few others who I believe they have probably the clearest understanding of the BSA Scouting program. But I have to disagree wit FScouter on this passage..."The parts of Scouting we choose to do and the way we do them is determined by the CO or defacto designee." The CO each year in the Charter agreement, agrees to use and the program of the BSA, in order to help achieve the shared goals of the CO and the BSA. As Volunteer leaders we agreed to follow the BSA program as well. So while the Co has influence over the flavor of the program, we are all expected to be delivering the same methods (in varioous and portions) in order to achieve the same Aims and the same Mission of the BSA, through the CO. An example of that flavor difference could be seen in a unit chartered by the LDS church as opposed by one charterd by the American Legion. While one might be open to the general public one could be for CO members only. Where oone might be heavily faith based the other might be more patriotic in the nature of their activities. But both use the same BSA Methods in order to achieve the same BSA Aims and Mission. I like OGE's questions a lot. The answer I believe is that there are over a million volunteers and some help the youth and the program grow and some do not. Some are interested in the unit they serve and some are interested in the larger view of the community and how it is affected by the quality of each scouting unit. And some just like to be "in charge" of others in some corner of their lives. When leaders do a bad job in one unit, it will make no difference to a unit centered leader in another unit. But to the scouters who are concerned about the youth in the community as a whole it will make a big difference. When leaders do not follow the program it has repercussions on all scouting programs and on all units. Leaders who understand the program realize the interconnectiveness of scouting. When a youth has a bad time in scouting, it is unlikely he will support scouting as an adult. He will likely not let his kids join scouting, he will likely not become a volunteer, and more importantly he will likely not grow up with the same values of scouting. For every youth a unit dissappoints we lose the opportunity to reach that person as a youth and as an adult, and we lose the people he will have influence over for years to come. Just imagine the amount of damage that one poorly led unit can do in just a few years, and then multiply it by the number of poorly led units you have heard of just on this forum in a year. Using the methods of scouting are important because it is you best guarantee that every scout can have a positive, fun, and productive time in Scouting. And every time a unit fails a scout it can negatively effect every other unit in a negative way. The Aims of Scouting is what the BSA program accomplishes, the Methods are what the how the Scouting program accomplishes the Aims. The Mission is why we do what we do. Without the use of the Methods it is not Scouting. They are the the ingredients for a recipe with a known outcome.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Licensed official NFL jerseys start at $229. You mean to say they can't make thet jersey for at least 10 times less than that. And yet I would bet that more NFL jersey's are sold to fans than there are BSA uniform shirts sold to Scouting members every year. Who complains about the cost of the jersey? Nobody, because they want to wear them due to the pride they have for the team it represents. If the scouts in the unit you serve do not want to wear the uniform, I doubt that cost is the real problem. The same holds true for the leaders.