Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The best thing you can do is to sit down and write a thoughtful and courteous letter to the local council Scout Executive, and District Executive. Tell them what you observed, and what your recommendations are for improvement, and what you would be willing to do to help with those changes. It could be anything from working on staff, helping with camp setup, maybe even helping with the Friends of Scouting Fundraising campaign so that the council can afford new equipment. But other than that there is really not much you can do. You have no authority in the selection or development of the camp director. You have no say in the purchase of equipment, you have no say in the planning of the camp activities. Your best contribution would be in a thoughtful evaluation of your experience at the camp, and your willingness to contribute in whatever way you can if called upon.

There are two separate and unique but similar sounding programs in the BSA. A Venturing Crew is a specific age defined program and just like a Boy Scout Troop or a Cub Scout Pack, A Varsity Team or a Sea Scout Ship it is it's own unit wit its own charter. It is forYouth male or female that are 14 and out of the eighth grade to age 20 (21 actually in some cases but that is another thread). A Boy Scout Troop on the other is recommended to be made of three types of Patrols. A New Scout Patrol for scouts under the ranks of First Class, and Experienced Patrol, and a Venture Patrol. Notice the similarity but difference between a Venturing Crew...and a Venture Patrol. There is no current group in the BSA called a Venture crew. A Venture patrol is part of a troop. They wear the Boy Scout Uniform and earn the Boy Scout Recognitions. They are simply older more skilled members of the troop. A boy can be multiple registered in any BSA programs that he is age and grade qualified for. Girl Scouts is a separate organization from the BSA and for a girl in Venturing to continue to earn Girl Scout recognitions she would need to stay active in a Girl Scout program. No you may not form a venture patrol with female members in it as the Boy Scout program is not a coed program. You can however with a minimum of 5 age eligible youth, form a separate unit, a Venturing Crew, that can include young men and women, however you will need to have male and female leaders as well. If any of the young men who join the crew are under 18 and have completed their First Class rank in Boy Scouts, then they (and only they) can continue to earn the Boy Scout Ranks including Eagle. Any female and any male who is has not completed the First Class rank or is over 15 may only earn the Venturing recognistions and not the Boy Scout Ranks. I think this covers all your questions. Any female, and any male who has I think this covered all of your questions.

Thanks John, but what I said was accurate. the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures allows for "the unit leader" not any unit leader, or an assistant unit leader, but "the unit leader" to stay in the room during the questioning by the board. He or she as I explained cannot ask questions but may only anwers questions asked of them by the board should they need clarification on anything. (also see step 9 of the 12 Steps From Life to Eagle which is part of the Eagle Scout Service Project Planning Kit.) "The unit leader" of a Troop is the Scoutmaster, of a Ship: the Skipper, of a Team: the Coach, and of a Crew: the Advisor. Any of theose units are capable of having a Scout earn the Eagle Rank. Yes, the local council advancement committee volunteers have the authority to choose the BOR members. I would think it unwise to specifically exclude the voting members of the council and district committees, the CRs, from their own unit's BOR unless they have a really good reason. Especially since the BSA does not exclude them. The BSA only excludes a very few people. They are The Unit Leader, the assistant unit leaders (note they identify them separately), relatives and legal guardians of the candidate. Anyone else may serve on the condion that "they understand the importance and purpose of the Eagle Board of Review". Regardless of the backstory those are the rules.

"They" cannot be present. The regulations specifically state the unit leader (Scoutmaster, Skipper, Advisor, Coach) There is nothing that allows an assistant or a parent to be present.

A Unit leader is responsible for knowing the needs and characteristics of the scouts he or she serves. (There is a reason why the have Scoutmaster Conferences, and why the Scoutmaster is supposed to be doing them.) The unit leader is the manager of the advancement program. The unit leader gives counsel to the senior patrol leader in their selection of the junior leaders. Now lets put these three rersponsibilities into a coordinated purpose. Through their contact with the scouts and functions such as the SM Conference, the Scoutmaster knows what skills each scout has, where they are strong and where they need more training or more practice. By sharing his or her knowledge through counseling and mentoring with the Senior Patrol Leader the SM can help the SPL make POR choices that will benefit both the needs of the group and the needs of the individual. Isn't that what good leadership is all about? So does a SM play a role in which scouts get POR's? If he or she isn't playing a role then they are not doing their job as a Scoutmaster. For Scouts who need a POR but do not get one, the Scoutmaster has options to employ. One example is the Scoutmaster can offer a project to the scout which if completed successfully can also be applied to his advancement. SO yes, a Scoutmaster, if they understand the program and their role in it, knows the needs and characteristics of each scout and uses the program elements and Methods to help the scout have the opportunity to find his own success.

Understand that each unit is an individual entity. They all get the same handbooks but not everyone reads them and not everyone follows them. The most important role a charter organization has is to select quality leaders. The problem in the unit you have described is not a fault of the Scouting program but of the people selected to lead in in that particular unit. You cannot have a scouting program when you do not follow the scouting program.

There is no rule in the BSa that requires a scout to use one activity toward just one requirements unless that requirement SPECIFICALLY prohibits the repeatative use. And there are a couple of requirements like that. Unit's have no authority to set to add to or suibtract from ANY of the BSA requirements. this includes setting a "no double dipping rule" as described in Liz's post. Leaders needd to understand that the BSA sets advancement rules and NO ONE ELSE. Even for one unit to not know and not fullow the BSA advancement program correctly is too many.

ANY person in or out of Scouting schould be allowed to protect the safety and the sanctity of his or her own body. In Scouting we teach and support the three r's of youth protection. The second R is for "resist" if a person has to strike another in order to protect their body I see nothing that is in conflict with the rules of the BSA.

You will not find a list of who can be cause iot is to extensive. You will only find an explanation of who cannot, and the CR is not on the that list as long as they are not a relative of the candidate's. One clarification. While the Unit Leader (remember that not all Eagle candidates are Boy Scouts) cannot be on the panel at the board of review they can be present, and may answer questions directed to them by the board if clarificatiuon on a topic is required. So while the unit leader (Scoutmaster, Skipper, Adviser, Coach) cannot aske questions of the Candidate they may be present and can participate in a specific and limited manner.

My apologies for keeoping you waiting for a response Eagle1982. I did not see your post until SMDonHal resurrected the thread. What I was refering to was things outside of scouting that would help bomfd the Group together. Besides being similar ages it could be that they all like to fish, or that they are all St. Louis Cardinal fans, or they are all into cars, or they all like country western music, or they all play instruments, or they are all on the track team It helps that they have something in common besides scouting that will help them to enjoy each others company.

I would have a talk with the cub and his adult partner. Have the scout explain to you and his mom or dad why such language is improper. Explain to the parent that you appreciate their invovement in seeing that it does not happen again, Then I would require that the scout apologize to the female leader. Whether he was saying it about her or not, he used that language in front of her and that in itself deserves an apology.

The information on program planning and its resources are in the Scoutmaster/assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training Course. But if the goal is to make youth better at the process it would seem to me you have the wrong audience.

Should it be saved? The answer boils down to one question. Does the Charter organization want a Scout program? If not then the unit is dead. If they want one then the District members have an obligation to fulfill their roles in helpiong to get the unit viable again.

There'd be nothing dishonest about it. You see the leadership requirement does not require that the project be any specific length of time. The Scoutmaster blew it when he did not recognize that the scout had not completed his leadership requirement back in July during the SM Conference. He could easily have given him a leadership project to do over the next few months that could have resulted in a successful BOR in October and allowing the scout enough time to complete his Eagle requirements. But the Committee also let the scout down by delaying his BOR for 4 months which should NEVER have happened. In addition they did not follow the required procedure when they did not advance him. Had the Scout continued to participate in the troop a strong argument could be made for appealing what happened, crediting the scout for time he could have been working on his leadership responsibilities, correcting the last BOR, and still giving the Scout a chance at Eagle, However the scout choosing to not participate for months works against him in this case. As far as the comment that..."it isn't the SM's or Committee's job to "get the scout a position", eh? Boys earn a position either by election or through appointment by their peers." That simply is not true. The requirement states that the Scoutmaster (and I will remind you that the SM is in charge of advancement) can assign a leadership project to a scout that needs to complete that requirement but has not been elected or selected to one the required positions. He could have, and he should have, but he didn't. And the statement that "(in which case the boy never demonstrated he was ready to lead)" That is a totally manufactured characteristic on your part, you have been given no evidence that suggests that. I'm sorry but to discredit a youth's character without any basis in fact just so that your opinion of the situation will fit is distasteful.

When the Scout did not pass the board of review was he given a written explanation of what requirement was not completed and what he could do to complete it? If not then the troop committee did not follow the correct procedures. Had they been more concerned about the developmentg of the scout then of simply passing him or not passing him they would have talked with the Scoutmaster to get the scout a position or a project that would have allowed him to complete the rank in time to continue toward Eagle. You will find the process that the board should have followed in the Advancement Committee policies and Procedures manual. If the committee can be convinced that they did not follow the required procedures then they could backdate the advancement and the scout could have still had time to work toward his Eagle. Unfortunately the scout stop participating. So between the scouts choice to not be there and the adults not following the correct procedures the chances for the The scout to complete his Boy Scout carreer as an Eagle is very slim. He could still possible work out an agreement to complete his Life rank based on the boards error. I wish him luck. BW

Program folks are the Cubmaster and assistant cubmasters, the den leaders and their assistants. Administrative would be the Committee Chair and the committee members including the PC and the pack Trainer. Mnay packs do their program planning with the the committee members and Program folks all together. With smaller packs this works especially well. With larger packs it is much more difficut to get things done this way. As an example as a Cubmaster we had 14 dens. We had 28 den leaders and assistant den leaders 4 assistant cubmasters, plus a committee of about 14. We could rarely find space for a full staff meeting let alone hope to get anything accomplished in a reasonable meeting time. Because of that I met with the Den Leaders to plan the program. I then met with the Committee chair and she and I worked out the details. We then presented the plan to the committee for their review and recommendations. The committee chair then gave assignments to the committee members on administrative work to support the program needs. I then gave the final instructions to the assistant Cubmasters and to the Den Leaders for their roles. Here's how it would work for a pack meeting. The program theme was Nature. A Den leader new of a local nature preserve that had a hands on animal program that was going out to schools to do program. I had the assistant Cubmaster for program track down the details. Got back to me an at the committee meeting a coupe months oin advance of the theme I shared this with the committee. The Treasurer made sure we hade the money for the event and cut a check for the preserve. The secratary mailed the check with the details of the pack meeting and gave the contact number of the assist cubmaster for program to be called for confirmation and to answer any questions. The den leaders and I already had a annual duty roster made up as to which den had set up with the assistant cubmaster for physical arrangements, and who had clean up. Another den had opening ceremony, another den had closing ceremony, and another den had a skit, and finally one den had a game. The den leaders had to have advancement to be presented at the pack meeting written down on the den advancement form and delivered to the advancement chairperson's home no later than 1 week before the pack meeting. She filled out the pack advancement report for the council and picked up the awards. She then notified the treasurer who would then put more mony into the council account for next month. The advancement chair brought the awards to the meeting and laid them out with the help of the Asst cubmaster for ceremonies, who had developed the advancement ceremony for that month. The committee scribe set up the mail box at the front door so that as the den leaders entered they could pick up the folder that had all the announcements in writing to share with each of the scouts parents. My job as scoutmaster was to be master of ceremonies at the pack meetings, keep things fun, well paced, and on time. We had our opening ceremonies, recognitions, a song, a skit, our featured presentation (in this case the animals), played a game, I did a cub version of a scoutmaster's minute, closing ceremony. clean up and go home. Many hands made for light work. But every hand had a specific job each month and they were all trained on how to do it. The main things that the committee chair and I provided was...the big picture vision, we workeed closely together to know where we wanted to see the pack go and how we would work to get it there, she leading the administrative support and me leading the program side. She recruited her team and I recruited mine, and then or big job was keeping people happy and productive and registered in their role. So that's how everybody had a role and every program event was a team effort.

Thanks CubPack28, I completely forgot about the new position of ScoutParent Coordinator. If that is the position that hopalong is refering to then their job is really about coordinating the parnets who are not registered leaders to participate and staff events and activities for the Pack.

That is a lot to ask to be explained in a forum setting. And I have to admit that it is surprising to hear these kinds of quetions after you say you have attended basic training. To answer you first question of "what is program", it is ANY activity sactioned by the pack that involves its members (either youth or adult) that are not prohibited by the policies of the BSA. So a Den meeting is part of the pack program, so is a Den meeting, so is a pack outing, so is a committee meeting, so is a committee bar-b-que, so is Day Camp, or the Blue and Gold banqet. All of these are part of your Pack Program. I am unfamilar with a position called PC. CC is a Committee Chair. MC is a committee member. In a condensed version the pack is a team effort. The program leader, Cubmaster (CM), assistan Cubmasters (CA), Den Leaders (DL), assistant Den Leaders (DA), Webelos Leaders (WL), and assistant Webelos Leaders (WA), are responsible for delivering the hands-on program to the youth, and to assist the committee in the planning of the Pack's program. The Dens work both independently with theor members at their specific program level, and as part of the pack in cooperating on portions of Pack meetings and other pack events. The Committee assists the program leaders in the planning of the program, and alos is responsiblr for the administartive support of the pack, such as paper work, record keeping, communications recognition, fundraising,etc. The place to start is for EVERYONE to get trained in their role. Once we know what your actual position in the pack is we will be able to give you better information on how you can steer things back onto the path that better reflects the methods of the Cub Scouting program. I hope this helps, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The same reason the BSA doesn't give the Pack rules for running a babysitting services is the same reason the pack should not do it either. It ios not a part of the Cub Scout program, it is not a function of the pack, It is not covered by BSA insurance unlike the pack program activities. By instructing the NON-Registered leader you are assuming the responsibility and liability for that service and for her, and if a child gets hurt you as the adult could be held personally liable. Youare there as a scout leader to lead the scouting program. Non-member youths are the responsibilty of their parents and the pack should never assume that responsibility ion the parents place. In ddition if a child were to be injured or worse, the property owner could be held liable, and unless you had their permission to run a baby sitting service they are not going like being drawn into this situation and so other legal nightmares could come your way. Lead a Scouting program, not a babysitting service for non-members. If the problem is due to having multiple dens meeting the same time and place other than at the pack meeting, as has been suggested, then your best solution is to fix your program. Dens are designed to meet individually, not as a cluster (except at the monthly pack meeting).

As a former Cubmaster I agree with DeanRx.

Remember that if you are using the New Scout Patrol, that while you would not have the patrol leader test and sign off on requirements you can use the Troop Guides and the Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols do it. Patrol Leaders could do the testing for ranks below their own in their patrols, and then of course you could use the other Assistant Scoutmasters a well.

As a cubmaster of a large pack we only had Den dues of $1 a week. Pack funds were obtained through Fall Popcorn sales and through flower/plant sales in the Spring

You could put 2 den leaders in the room and neither the BSA accident insurance or liability protection would extend to protect either the leaders or the children in case of an injury.

"What are the BSA rules that apply to babysitting siblings at the events?" There are none and for good reason. the children are not members and so they, the girl, the girls parents, and likely the CO, are not covered by the unit or BSA accident insurance or liability protection for such a service. Does the property owner know that an unlicensed and uninsured babysitting service is being operated on their property? Should a child in the care of the babysitter become injured or should any property damage be done there could be civil and possibly criminal charges leveled against the baby sitter, her parents, the unit, the chartering organization, the property owner (if different form the CO). Any lawyer would have a field day with the number of people who have exposed themselves to liability in this situation. The BSA would want nothing to do with such exposure and so do not expect them to encourage it by creating rules for it. Parents are responsible for their own children at scouting events when families are present.