Bob White

Actually not. The Scout Executive can only approve the making of special patches CONTINGENT on the design being approved by the BSA trademark enforcement office of the BSA Supply Division. No uniform patch can be made except by an authorized vendor with the approved usage of BSA licensed trademarks. This includes temporary activity patches, CSPs, JSPs etc.

Which is exactly what I said.

PM to Eamonn

This is not about splitting hairs, it is about knowing and understanding the rules.

This is not just why Venturing exists. this is why the three levels of patrols exist in a troop.

So what you are saying is that there is a difference between what you teach and what the program recommends. That could very well be, not everyone follows the syllabus. Remember a portion on ages and stages? Is the NSP a sort of advanced Webelos Den. As a matter of fact it is. It is a transitional phase from a Webelos Den to an experienced Patrol in a troop, It lasts only about a year, out of what should be a 7 1/2 year period in troop scouting , so there is no reason to be concerned about that. It is not as if that this the only example in scouting of teaching scouts through a series of program stages. Aren't Wolf and Bear Dens a transition from Tiger to Webelos? Isn't Webelos part of the transition out of Cubbing. NSP is a transition INTO an Experiencesd Patrol and the Experienced Patrol is a transition into a Venture Patrol. All of Scouting is a series of steps that are based on the changing ages and stages of a youth's development. Certainly you teach the "Ages and Stages" portion of basic training? So you must be familiar with that? In many years as a Roundtable Commissioner and a District Commissioner in three councils (As well as being a unit leader that used the NSP and three tiered program), it has been my experience that troops that follow the iered program levels not only recuit as many scouts as other troops but more importantly retain a higher number of scouts for longer periods than units that do not follow the program. That is probably why it exists. Younger scouts want to be around older scouts and they will be, remember the New Scout Patrol is a temporary thing rarely lasting a year. But older scouts do not want to spend a year learning the basics and then 6 and a half years teaching them to younger kids. An 11 year old and a 16 year old are not going to be ready for the same adventure unless you set the difficulty level for the 11 year old, and that is not going to hold the interest of the 16 year old scout. Having older scouts occassionally work with the younger ones is a fine thing, but as a regular diet it's a very bad idea. You need to allow scouts to have a program of steadily increasing skills and adventure that match their skills and abilities as they transition through the ages and stages of development. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't have the hard facts but I'd be willing to bet we could keep more of the older boys in scouts if they moved to a Venturing Crew. I do not believe you will find the numbers support your theory. Venturing has the worst retention by percentage of the three programs. A good unit program keeps scouts in loonger regardless of which program it is in.

Again, had you looked at the post you would have seen that my regerence was to page 22-1 and not 21-12. The only requirements for the two scouting awards you mentioned are basically being a registered Scouter, giving service to youth, and being accepted by the selection committee. It is a very wide net that is cast. Anyone who recieved those awards are deserving by the fact that they were selected by the committee. It would of course be silly to think that any selection will please everyone. But it would not seem will please everyone personally, but it would be ungracious to label them undeserving, simply because you disapprove of them even though the people responsible for the selection chose them.

Fastbow Your error is in assuming by the two letter "AN" on the edge of the patch you are seeing is the HISTORIAN's patch. It is not. It is the MUSICIAN's patch which, unlike a position of responsibility patch, is worn on the right sleeve rather than the left. You were incorrect in the patch placement on your son's uniform. The SPL was incorrect in how he handled it. Rather than go by the unrecognizable slice of a patch in the handbook, you should consider using the BSA Insignia Guide to find the correct display locations for the various awards and recognitions. And perhaps you need to be a little more trusting of others with more experience...even when they are youth. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't think you are being harsh on national at all. But I do think you take an unfortunate view of scouting for a volunteer leader. Your "presumptions" are based on your your misunderstanding of the program and its Methods. a problem that is easily remedied through increased knowledge of Scouting and a less cynical attitude toward its Methods. The New Scouts you get should not be unfamiliar with camping if their Pack followed the program and made use of the camping activities available to Cub Scouts. Having them ready for a week of Summer camp in 4 months is not a difficult task. THOUSANDS of troops every year have managed to do it for decades. Why do ou find it a problem? You are the one who wants to make the Summer camp responsible for skill training from Tenderfoot to First Class. Nothing I have learned about program planning in the BSA suggests that, where did you get that idea? Many troops find great advantage in Webelos coming in in a ready made patriol. it makes the implementation opf the New Scout Patrol that much easier. Bit that is only if you follow the BSa troop operations plan...do you? Not "get them in the pipleline and get them out". It's about getting them the basic skills to get them into more adventure so that you can keep them in L o n g e r. The problem isn't that National doesn't trust you... it's that you do not trust the Scouting program. This program has been evolved and developed over the last 100 years by thousands of scouters with far more experience and success at scouting than you give them credit for. The information and Methods on how to deliver a quality program is made available to you through the resources of the BSA, and you don't seem to be very interested in learning or using them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

BW can't seem to separate the Boy Scout joining requirement age from the mandatory separation from the Cub Scout program age, which is what is being discussed in this thread. Not true, if you had read the post you would have seen that what I shared came from the Cub Scout Leader Book. Yes you can award something to someone that does not deserve it look at the Silver Beaver, Award of Merit, Yikes, that has a distinct taste of sour grapes. Those are not recognitions you "earn" by meeting standardized requirements. Those are honors rewarded to you because a person or person nominated you and a committee of peers reviewed and accepted the nomination. If your council is like most Longhaul when you recieved these recognitions then you were probably on the selection committee the next year. If your committee chose someone to recieve either of those recognition then your actions are what made them deserving of the award, just as much as their actions that they were nominated for. AS for the content of the Webelos Leader Handbook, there seems to be a difference between that and the Cub Scout Leader book. Which is why it is best to contact your local council's registrar. BW

As I said, they are off on an adventure more suited to their age and abilities. You cannot make scouts relive the same introductory skill level activities year after year after year and expect them to stay in Scouting (or to develop if they do stay). New scouts are only new for the first year, they will still have several years of Scouting ahead of them to mingle with and learn from the older scouts. Plus they still have their Troop Guide to learn from, so there is no need to worry that they will lose out on anything that first yeaqr of learning the basics. I am surprised that you are unfamiliar with this as it is in the Scout leader training and the Scoutmasters Handbook. As well as other Boy Scout leader training and resources. Putting new scouts into situations they are untrained for and not physical prepared for is irresponsible. Making older scouts miss out on adventure they should be prepared for and yearning for by making them stay at the same level of adventure year after year goes against every philosophy of the outdoor program of Scouting. The logical, and BSA supported solution is tiered programing as is shown in the BSA troop meeting plans, where you have different lessons and different adventures for patrols at different stages of development. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually ItsMe I think you are still missing what the BSA program is saying. It's ok to have a campout that is easy enough for a NEW Scout to go on as soon as he joins (and you should). Just don't make the other scouts go on it too. The older scouts should have higher skills, and they have done the easy campouts already. Let them go do things that they are ready for that the New Scouts are not yet prepared for. The new scouts can go on the higher adventures trips later afeter they have grown and learned. You need to have a tiered program so that the activity matches the individual skills and abilities of the three types of patrols. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You will learn that the view as an adult leader is different from the view as a youth participant. It's fine to ask what kind of shoe you should wear, (its kind of a boring way to test, but it is one way to do it) but the time to do that is during the teaching and testing phases of the skill not during the board of review. If you want to know if you scouts have the skills then put them in a situation where the skill needs to be applied, then observe and evaluate as they apply their knowledge. Knowing how to tie a sheet bend is only a part of the skill, knowing when to apply it is just as important. Rather than quizing scouts, teach them skills and put them in situations where the skills are used. From the BSA Advancement Committee Guide... The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review. 1)To see that the Scout has done the work that he was supposed to do for the rank 2) to see how god an experience the Scout is having in the unit 3) To encoiurage the Scout to progress further. The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of the Scouting Ideals. You will learn more about this as you take your basic leader training. But again, as an ASM you will not be allowed to sit on a board if review, it is the committee members who need to know this information, and it is covered in the their basic training materials as well.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gunny and Major, If you look back at the first several posts you will see that is is not about how to answer parents if they ask for our adveice. The thread has been about the motivation used for some scouts to attain Eagle. How the parent wants to motivate a scout does not require us to alter the program. What a scout chooses to be motivated by does not change the advancement program or Methods of Scouting. We can present scouting a way to to try and minimize parents and scouts from setting the goal for achieving Eagle for the wrong reasons. But we cannot stop them if they choose to have the wrong motivation. The bottom line is still if the requirements are met then the scout advances. If the requirements are not met, the scout does not. If a scout wants to practice the Scout values and skills in order to get Eagle just get into a good college...so what? If the parent wants to withhold a driver's license or ice cream until the Scout reaches Eagle, So what? Neither effects our next meeting or adventure. In either case they become an Eagle until they meet the BSA requirements. My son plays the drums. Sometimes he pratices because he is in a good mood, and sometimes he practices because he is in a lousy mood, sometimes he practices so to prepare for a performance, sometimes to show off to a friend. I don't care why he practices, I just thrilled he practices. Everytime he practices he brecomes a better drummer. Everytime a boy practices or completes a scouting requirement he is becoming a better scout...regardless of what his motivation is.

Here is why. The youth is not raising money for scouting nor is the BSA endorsing the organization the money is being raised for, or product he is selling. The scout must have the BSA's permision to use the BSA image, name or symbols, since their use (even on a troop t-shirt) suggests that the BSA is in some way endorsing the other organization, product, or service being sold. The Scout is not doing a scout project. He is doing a service project for another organization that will be allowed to count toward his Scouting advancement requirements, but it is not a "Scouting" project. The BSA fundraising policies state that you must have the BSA's permission, via the council scout executive, to be able to use the name, images, or symbols of scouting during any phase of the event. That means for the scout to raise money for this other organization he can only use that other organizations name. He may not use any scouting logos, scouting name, or reference to scouting during ANY phase of the fundraising visually or verbally. (this includes troop t-shirts). As for the Eagle project , the BSA advancemnt policies are very specific on this point. The Eagle project is doine "outside the sphere of scouting". I hope this helps explain it. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a newly minted Assistant Scoutmaster I would recommend you help the scout schedule a time to meet with the Scoutmaster to do the Scoutmaster Conference, it is realy his or her job to do. As you gain training and experience you will learn more about how to do thses should you become a Scoutmaster down the road. As for Boards of Review as an Assistant Scoutmaster you are prohibited from taking part in them, So as long as the Troop Committee members are trained and understand their role then things will be fine. To learn more about both the Scoutmaster Conference and the Board of Review I would recommend attending Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and reading the appropriate chapters of the Advancement Committee Guide/Policies and Procedures, that refer to those topics. While previous posters have covered elements of each there is more to them and you will get a more complete understanding through the BSA training and resources. Congrats on becoming an Assitant Scoutmaster BW

The rule is 11 OR out of the 5th grade. If it was whichever came second then it would have to read 11 years old AND out of the 5th Grade.

Do your Scout Parents really know....everything that is required for their sons to have a program? Yes Is your committee fully staffed? Yes Are they trained? Yes Do you have enough Assistant Scoutmasters? (Mates) Yes Is there enough parental involvement for outings? None required (that's why you have enough assistants.) We got the way through a focus on good communications and fun. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't see how it is any of our business how parents want to motivate their kids as long as it is not abusive. I do not see why as Scouters we should be concerned about this.

Check with your Council's registrar. According to ours, 11 or out of the 5th grade means whichever comes first.

I would think a mens small would be suitable and easier to find.

A boy may stay in Webelos until he is 11 years old or graduates from 5the Grade. The older brother has turned 11. He must now leave the Webelos Den. Ref. The Cub Scout Leader Handbook, page 22-1

"Bob - back when cross-over was based on birthdates, were there explicit exceptions for boys who were considerably out of phase in terms of age/grade? Grade was not even a factor, it was strictly by age. You joined Boy Scouts at 11 years old.

Use the New Scout Patrol and First Class Emphasis program plan approach and they shpould acclimate just fine.