Bob White

How exactly does a scout just "take" a leadership position? There is nothing in the BSA program that suggests you allow that is there? A Scout should be with his patrol at a camporee. You learn the skiil at the event, you are supposed to learn it before you go and apply it at the event.Shouldn't you? He does not HAVE to join the Venture Patrol...he GETS to. Where are the scouts in the unit you serve getting the idea that moving up in scouting adventure is a bad thing? Make up your mind, you say scouts don't want to babysit (and by the way who is training them that they look at serveice to other scouts as babysitting?) so you don't want to separate them. As if putting them in the same patrol with far fewer skills than the older scouts will make the older scouts feel they are NOT babysitting? If a feeling of babysitting is your concern then you should want to keep them apart...wouldn't you? If you think there are scouts would do better in troop offices then someone like the scoutmaster should be counseling the SPL on the officer selection...shouldn't he? 16 year olds who like to play chess should play chess. Don't you ever have scouts sit down at activities and play together? Do you stop them from playing chess? What if they like to fish, do you not allow time at outings for scouts to fish if they want to? I would hope you do. There is another explanation for saying that something isn't true, and that is when what they say is false, whether they were aware of it being false or not is irrelevant. False is "not true". Isn't it?

Whenever I have had a parent along on an activity we explain ahead of time that there only responsibility is to relax and enjoy watching their child grow. They are told ahead of time thay they are not to offer help uless asked. (and our scouts know to ask a parent LAST.) We recommend they bring a chair, a book, a camera, and a coffee cup.

I don't understand what you are say here EagleDad. That the older scouts won't know to think about helping other people? That the PLC doesn't think about the needs of the New Scout Patyrol? Arent' those things that the Scoutmaster should be teaching them through Scoutmaster Minutes, Scoutmaster Coferences, Junior Leader Training? Just because an older scout is seerving in a troop office doesn't mean he can't still do the adventures with his Patrol? Your a trainer, you know that it is specically addressed that in the Scoutmaster Handbook. There is nothing in the BSA Methods of Scouting that keeps a unit from following the age based patrol troop structure and program and not be able to follow the Patrol Method. In fact be structuring the Patrols by age and skill level you can better follow the Patrol Method than by using mixed patrols, and you can keep scouts more active and interested, and in the program longer. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I was offering a simple example that would be easy to understand. At least with the popcorn the BSA has approved the risk. You did not offer them the opportunity to approve the hoagie.

"I don't buy into the idea that activities be age specific. If the patrols are based on age, then older boys who wish to work with the younger boys won't be able to, they'll have their patrol activities instead. That simply isn't true. The older scouts who want to work with the younger ones can ofer their services to the SPL as Troop Guides and Instructors, as well as in other offices that serve all the members of the troop. BW

Troop Guides would have to come from the Experienced Patrols or Venture Patrols wouldn't they? AS a Scoutmaster all my Instructors were at least 16 years old and Star rank or higher, but I can say for sure they should not come from the New Scout Patrols, so they would have to come from the Experienced or Venture Patrols. It is recommended they be at least First Class with good communication skills. The SPL comes from a troop election, the requirements for holding the office determined by the PLC. The ASPLs are selected by the SPL. Since the NEW scouts have no leadership training yet it would seem a poor choice to choose from them unless it was a very new unit with no older scouts. BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It means that any program or activity that wishes to compete for a youth's time and attention has got to be one that strongly appeals to the wants and needs of its target audience, just as any other consumer product. Young people stay in scouting based on the ability of their scout unit's program to meet the needs and characteristics of people their age. The Scouting program that you will find in the training and resources of the BSA are specifically designed to do that very thing...IF you follow the program in the unit. Young people do not leave scouting to make time for things they enjoy LESS.

Easily If you buy a hoagie from a boy in a scout uniform and you chip your teeth on a bone. Who are is your lawyer going to sue? The answer is...everyone they can connect to that sandwich. You have no right putting the BSA in a position of liability way by selling a product or service they have not approved of by using the BSA image without their permission. As a member of scouting you have no authority to lend or suggest BSA endorsement of ANYTHING that has not received prior approval of the BSA.

The lack of support you speak of sounds more like resistance to your goals,probably caused by one or two things or a combination of them. One being that some trainees write goals that they have no control of or authority over, so when they try to implement the work they trod on other peoples toes, or 2) the lack of communication. It's best to discuss your ticket goals in advance with those who you work with in scouting, especially those who you answer to as a leader, so that they know what you have in mind and approve of it as part of the units overall planning BEFORE you present the ticket for approval.

In the council I live in none of the Explorer Posts were connected to troop that I know of. We hade several post s and all were stand alone mostly connected to Police , Fire, and rescue units. Posts chartered to COs that had troops largely ended decades ago when exploring turned mostly to Career Exploring. Now, I know of two Ships that are stand alone, all the Crews are out-croppings of troops except for two that are on college campuses and are part of APOs. I have trouble buying into the theory of being too busy to do something they enjoy. The Scouts in the Ship I serve are almost entirely high school juniors and seniors and college students. People make time for things they WANT to do.

Not at all. The entire scouting program, including Boy Scouts, is designed with the understanding that scouts go though different stages of interest and abilities which which generally come at specific ages and stages of development. If you look at the BSA's Troop operations plan you have three levels of patrols based on the ages and stages of development. If you look at the BSa troop meeting planner, you have three different skill levels of activities, each based on the different age adn stage of development for that level of patrol. If you consider the length of membership for scouts 7.5 years, you see that by matching the activities to the skill level of the patrol types allows the scout to have a totally different scouting experience each year, rather than having to live his first year over and over again. You should not want to send a Venture Patrol to camp in a local park and work on Tenderfoot to 1st Class skills any more than you should want to send a New Scout Patrol of 10.5 year olds to climb a mountain. The level of program adventure should grow as the scout grows in physical ability and skill. By doing so you offer each level of Patrol the skills and activities that are appropriate and challengeing for each stage of age and ability. If by age 11 or 12 scouts have as much ability as the 16 or 17 year old scouts to be able to do their same activities, then that is a sure sign that you stopped developing the skills of the 16 year olds about 4 years ago. At the end off the month if you are all camping at the same place that doesn't mean that while awake each patrol must be taking part in the same adventure. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The intent is to not mislead the public as to what products, organizations and activities are approved by the BSA. Scout Sunday is an approved BSA Activity Selling War Bonds was an approved BSA activity Eagle Projects are done "Outside the sphere of Scouting" and the work can be accepted for the completion of the requirement.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What about the Patrol Method? Would it be correct to assume then that either A) you do not use patrols OR B) You do not keep the Patrol togetheras a unit as the individual scouts work at different skill levels?

I agree that as scout leaders should be conscientious in how "we" motivate scouts for ANY goal. My comments were directed at the topic of the thread, which asked our opinion about the way PARENTS motivate and about the personal motivations of the scouts for adveancement. While we can influence, we cannot control other peoples motivations. Would you agree that for whatever motivation a scout or parent chooses, those personal motivations do not alter our role as leaders or the advancement process. So why be concerned if a parent wants to use the DL as a motivator or not?

You were right Scouting Mom, time to upgrade the cub library, Thanks. BW

You can go the same place but not do the same things. Having a tiered program does not mean you can't meet at the same place. or camp at the same place. Nor does it mean that have to.

I really am trying to understand Gunny I just do not get your point.

I never suggested talking to each scout the same or treating each scout the same. I simply said that what the parent uses as a motivation does not alter the requirements or how and what we do as leaders. So what the parent wants to use is the parents buisness not ours. Maybe if you could give me an example it would help? How would you change scouting for the scout if you knew what the parents motivation was. What would do you change what you do if you didn't know what the parents use as motivation? What if you ask the scout and he doesn't tell you. What if you ask the parents and they don't tell you. How does any of this change what you do? And if it doesn't alter what we would do, then why would it be any of our business? Torribug, I think what you have chosen to do is fine, I also think that if you had chosen to base his license on his advancement that thats fine to. I think if you want to reward him with a car or money that would be fine as well. As the parent I see no reason for you to not be able to parent however you choose.

I think you misunderstand me Gunny. I am not saying what you suggest. I am saying that I am the Scout leader and not the parent. I lead the scout program, the parent...parents the scout. It is not my role to tell a parent what they can or cannot do with their son in regards to a drivers license (something that has nothing to do with the scout program or with how I relate to the scout). If the parent asks my opinion I will share it, but do not think for a moment that having an opinion means I have any authority in the matter. It is not a Scout leaders job to tell parents what to do with their children. No matter how a parent chooses to motivate their children it does not effect what our roles are as scout leaders. I had a parent with two boys in the troop who told them that if they achieved Eagle he would put $5000 in their bank account. Not a method I would choose but he is the parent and can do what he wants woith his kids and his money. The fact that they had $5,000 dangling on the stick had no effect on me or on my role as the leader. Was I supposed to make the requirements different for them. Which was I supposed to do make them harder or easier? Were we supposed to change our camping plans? Sell more popcorn or less popcorn? Do I change the merit badge selection? Do I change the way I talk to the scouts? Or do I let the parents be parenbts and I be the Scouting leader? How exactly does the parents choice of reward effect me as a leader, the way I interact with a Scout, or the program I lead.

Whether they leave for college or any other reason the membership of Venturing is not gaining new members as fast as they lose members. The loss ratio is greater by percentage in Venturing than in Cubs or Boy Scouts. As far as the lack of program structure being a part of Venturing's weakness, you copuld be right. I think the biggest problem is the misuse of the program as an extension of a troop's program. most Crews are started using the same leaders from a troop as a way to keep older scouts interested. But if they can't deliver a troop program that interests older scouts how will changing the name from troop to crew make the leaders better at delivering a program? So the crew rarely lasts more than a year or two or survives with the minimum number of scouts and never really develops as a program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

cucdadinnj writes "Isn't it odd --that there must be 10's of thousands of web sites for Cub Packs and Boy Scout Troops -- and there is no little guidance from the BSA." And yet, in the post immediatley before his Infoscouter gives a link to the official BSA site with all kinds of recommendation for unit websites. What else do you want the BSA to do? Remember the BSA's role is to develop and help control the BSA PROGRAM. They do not develop or control phone trees, newsletters, e-mails, OR web sites. They gave suggestions but if you want rules or guidelines from them on a topic that is not a part of the program then that will likely not happen.

Scoutingagain, Scout Popcorn is considered a Scout product. "Commercial products" refers to anything other than a Scout Product. If scouts in yoour area are raising donations of money or product as Scouts for the Eagle product they do so in violation of the BSA money earning policies. As stated previously the Eagle Project is done "outside the sphere of scouting" The candidate is not doing the project for scouting he is doing it for the benefactor of the project and should be seeking donations ass a representative of that organiozation and not Scouting. s Scoutnut has already correctly pointed out... "#7 -Will the fund-raising project avoid soliciting money or gifts? The BSA Rules and Regulations state, Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events. For example: Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as Scouts or as a troop participate in the Salvation Armys Christmas Bell Ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization."

We only collected for the first year when the Cub first joined. From that point on we paid all fees from popcorn profits.

Make PureIces's cowboy java in the morning while making breakfast. Throw your eggshells into the coffe pot, they will drag the suspended grounds to the bottom of the coffee pot making it easier to pour. (Strain through teeth as needed )

After well over several dozen Eagle Scouts, I have not known of a parent to do this. That does not mean they didn't, just that as the adult leader I do not need to know or expect to know everything a parent and scout discuss. Even if I had known it would not have altered anything I did as a Scout leader or anything the troop did as a program. This is betwen a boy and his parent and does not involve the BSA or troop program.