Bob White

Free to observe does not mean free to interrupt.

Keep in mind that Sea Scout Officers Specialized Training is a 3 hour course to cover the basics of Sea Scouting No, it is not. I have the SSOST syllabus in front on me and it clearly states that it's purpose is to familiarize the participant with the contents of the Sea Scout Manual. The best aspect of the current Seabadge is the networking with the other Sea Scout leaders. The current syllabus uses almost entirely outdated materials from Wood Badge circa 1980-1985. It does not cordinate with any of the current training materials of any current BSA program. Some of the staff who wanted to infuse the current BSA terminologies and skill contents were barred from doing so by the presence of Chales Holmes the National Director of Venturing who was present to make sure that the course content was not altered. Instruction on the administration on the ship that emb021 says the course is about, and which is stated in the course description, never took place. While the efforts of the staff were obvious, and the comradery of the participants was excellent, one could not say that this was advanced Sea Scout Training. At best it introduced many of the participants who were Venturing leaders and not Sea Scout Ship officers to a small peak at the Sea Scout Program, mostly through some very intersting table top displays and through the networking at their crew tables and during meals. So I am sure that as a Venturing leader that GNX learned about the Sea Scout program. Speaking as a Sea SCout leader it offered nothing in the way of advanced Sea Scout Ship operations or administration training as advertised. As GNX Guy pointed out these courses are usually in the mid twenties and of the 45 participants that is probably how many were actually in Sea Scout units. As you know I am a big proponent of training and have had very productive an positive learning experiences at most every training opportunity I have attended or staffed over the years. Except for the people I met this was not one of them. I could not in good conscience recommend others to attend until the syllabus is corrected. I would happily pay the same amount of money to spend a weekend socializing with the scouters who were there (staff and participants) without the interruption of several hours of very poor program content. Having attended and taught the other Sea Scout training courses leading up to Seabadge I can honestly say they were quite good. Seabadge appears to be the exception, unfortunately it is also considered advanced training. I would recommend that Sea Scouters attend Wood Badge at this point. They will be unable to wear the recognition but they will recieve better training until the Seabadge syllabus is updated and improved. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Wood Badge is Advanced Leadership Training for ALL adults in ALL scouting positions including Sea Scouts. Seabadge is NOT the same course nor is it intended to be. For those who have not attended Wood Badge for the 21st Century it would be impossible for them to compare it agains previous versions of Wood Badge that they have experienced. They simply have no knowledge base to uuse for such a comaprison. If their Wood Badge experience was a good on and has helped them develop in leadership then they should be satisfied in that. They have no need and serve to benefit to guess at what they think are problems with a course they have never taken. Joni4Ta The probelm is not that all leaders do not use the information taught at Wood Badge. As you have seen in other threads, many leaders do not use information taught in other courses either. The fault is not in the information or the course, but in the choice of the indiviuals to learn an d use the ckills or not, and in the choice of some trainers to train effectively or not. People make mistakes in both the teaching and the learning, that is to a large degree based on how we select those who teach and those who lead. I cannot help to think however that your specific situation is far more personal than that, and that perhaps stess and anger from your relationship to the scoutmaster taints your perspective and reaction to the situation.

1) The "Eight Methods of Scouting" are not discussed mainly because Wood Badge is not about any single scouting program,.... A poster writes In the BSA they all are the same. That is incorrect. In the BSA you have three programs; Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Venturing. Each program has its own unique set of Methods. This is taught in 4) Wood Badge is not about Boy Scouting... A Poster writes Then why do you have to be a BSA member or BSA professional to take the course? Because it is about ALL adult positions in Scouting NOT just in Boy Scouting. 5) The Patrol Method should serve the Leadership Development Method, Is not discussed in Wood Badge..... First you need to look at the entire statement. I did not say that the Patrol method was not taught. I said that the patrol method should serve the leadership method" was not taught in any BSA training. A poster asks "Then how is a newby to learn about this method? On the street???" While learning scouting from a local memntor is one method you will find the Patrol Method explained in New Leader Essentials the first step in BASIC adult leader training, in Scout master/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, In the Scoutmaster Handbook, and in other Boy Scout program resources 12) Meals prepared by professional food service contractors is done for the first weekend... A poster writes " took the old course & if I remember correctly, we cooked all our own meals. Not every leader needs to learn how to cook outdoors, but it doesn't hurt. It helps build comradeship." True , but that was a course designed for Scoutmasters and the current Wood Badge is designed ofr ALL adult position in Scouting not just troop leaders, and while the leadership skills are universal in these positions the need to be able to cook outdors is not. The course you took and the course offered today are different, not better or worse, just different. 15) A "Method" is less important than an "Aim," "Mission," or "Vision Statement." First it was pointed upit that this was an untrue statement and does not appear in ANY BSA training. Then the question was asked of this incorrect statement "Is this why the Methods aren't taught in any training course? This is also an incorrect statement as the Methods are first taught in New Leader Essentials the first step in BASIC adult leader training for all postions in Scouting. They are then retaught as part of each level of Leader Specific Training or each program leadership position in the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would calmly explain to the parent that at this level of Scouting parent interuptions are damaging to the youth leadership process and that since you have asked her to stop interrupting and she has been unable to comply that she will need to find other things to do in another location during the meetings. But I would also tell that to all the parents, there is not purpose to having parents at a Sea Scout or Venturing meeting, unless it is a formal awards presentation or a family event.

The Scoutmaster you speak of, you refer to him in an earlier post as yor son's father do you not?

I was trying to point out that it was not you who said that the SSOST was about the Contents of the Manual, that was me. I also posted what seascout.net said was in the Seabadge course and half of it was there. What happend to the other half I am not sure. You posted that you thought that Seabadge was similar to Wood Badge in content. That would have been correct had you said Wood Badge of 20 to 25 years ago. The teminologies and methods were outdated and did not match those used in Venturing, or any other program in Scouting. They are nothing like the content of the Wood Badge that has existed for the past 8 years, and in fact were from a Wood Badge version that was largely replaced in 1986. I am glad you enjoyed the course along with the 44 other participants. I hope you will have the opportunity to attend other Sea Scout or Venturing courses that have the more current management and leadership materials than this one had. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

GNX Guy wrote ""As I think I mentioned,the prerequisite training of "Sea Scout Officers Specialized training" was indeed a review of the Sea Scout manual." Hey GNX... wasn't I the guy who wrote that? Were is what I wrote "Sigh...Sea Scout Leader Specialized training is a course that "gives participants the the information they need for understanding and using the Sea Scout Manual" You said the SSOST was about Ship Administration. Didn't your Seabadge cover any of the things mentioned on Seascouting.org? Like; Aims amd Mission instructional methods and technique Leadership styles planning problem solving 48?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Twenty accurate and honest answers to Kudu's 20 Stupid Question. If Kudu did go to Wood Badge he chose not to pay attention and here is why. 1) The "Eight Methods of Scouting" are not discussed mainly because Wood Badge is not about any single scouting program,. The Scouting methods are not the same in all programs, and not every scouter who attends Wood badge is involed in every program. 2) The Methods are not discussed in Wood Badge...See above. 4) Wood Badge is not about Boy Scouting and so the purpose of patrols that is mention is that of organizing the training group into smaller units for organizational and program management purposes. 5) The Patrol Method should serve the Leadership Development Method, Is not discussed in Wood Badge primarily because it is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 6) Wood Badge is not about being a Scoutmaster and so the Scoutmasters primary job is not discussed. 7) Term limits, are not discussed in Wood Badge 8) Allowing Patrols to elect bad leaders is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 9) The very best natural Patrol Leaders should be encouraged to step aside is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 10) Summer camp is a vacation from the Patrol Method is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 12) Meals prepared by professional food service contractors is done for the first weekend of the program because Wood Badge is not for Troop Leaders it is for ANY leader in the BSA and not every leader needs to know how to cook outdoors for their role in scouting. 13) Baden-Powell said that "Scouting is a Game With a Purpose." is perhaps metioned once. and while Kudu does not agree that BP said it, it does not diminish the message or B-P's intent that Scouting should be both fun and educational. 14) Is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 15) A "Method" is less important than an "Aim," "Mission," or "Vision Statement." 16) it is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 17) Scouting teaches Citizenship through elections is not a part of Wood Badge. 18) Baden-Powell's "Patrol System" is old-fashioned is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 19) William Hillcourt's "Patrol Method" is old-fashioned is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. 20) Human nature has changed in the hundred years since Scouting was invented is not a part of Wood Badge or any BSA training syllabus. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is nothing wrong with using you military rucksack. or having equipment with a camo design. The memo years ago from Williams refered to mixing military uniforming with the Boy Scout Uniform or wearing military uniforming in place of a Boy Scout uniform as well as wearing things like wearing a military ammo belt and suspenders with the uniform. The purpose was to keep military wannabes from trying to make the Boy Scouts look paramilitary by adding to or replacing BSA uniform pieces with military garm or equipment. Leader of good character should be able to tell when the line is crossed. As far as BDUs it is improper to wear non uniform pieces with uniform pieces if you intent os to follow the rules and set a good example. It is also improper to dress in military garb during a scouting activity. Let your own integrity tell you if wearing BDU's fit either of those prohibitions. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

A bit of an over reaction don't you think SctDad? At some point were you told that the the advancement requirements would never change? The swimming survival skills aretaught in the swimming merit badge, which by the way is one of the most popular of all the merit badges. So the vast majority of Boy Scouts still learn those skills. This is truly a non-issue.

Nowhere does the BSA say that you are out of uniform if you do not wera the red jacket. Nowhere does the BSA require that you use any specific personal gear. I understand what the poster said the intend was, my point is that the article does not address that intent. And nowhere does the BSA show concern for uniform purity. I can show you a two dozen Boys Scouts in two dozen different Boy Scout uniforms that are all worn correctly without being identical to each other. Purity is not an issue, at least not with the BSA. And what flashlight you carry does not matter.

I am pretty sure you will find in the Scoutmaster Handbook, and in the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, that the BSA shows and teaches two unit operation models, one for a larger unit, one for a smmaller unit. There is reason for each unit to reinvent a perfectly good and usable wheel that has been provided for them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The program is designed for there to be 1 Troop Guide for each New Scout Patrol. The idea is to be a personal coach to the patrol leader, and to help represent the patrol at the PLC.

The article would seem to be about using personal equipment that works, not about altering the uniform, and when was the BSA ever against letting a member choose their own personal gear? Nothing in the article suggests the soldiers are changing the uniform at will. Even the comment on the hat wasn't that he got a different hat but that he hoped the army would change it, not because iot did't function weel, but only because he thought he would LOOK BETTER in a different hat. Everything mentioned in the article seems to be personal gear, isn't it?

Wouldn't it wonderful the things that could be accomplished if we had a national philossphy where trained leaders followed the national program rather than a few thousand different personal ones. You don't suppose that is why the BSA has training and resources that support the BSA philosophy? just a thought.

Thank you anarchist, you made the point very well. This is about the Patrol Method of scouting, which even for the traditionalists should be a welcomed message. Even B-P said "the Patrol Method is not one way to run a troop, it is the ONLY way."

Keep in mind that not all Wood Badge goals benefit youth directly. This is a leadership course and not all participants lead or serve youth directly. And not all goals for unit leaders will be about dirct service to youth.

sigh...just because you choose to take the money that is raised and give it to an organization does not make the organization liable for the injury. "And since the Money-Unit Earning Application was approved by the council, the BSA could be liable even if no indication was given at the time of sale it was to benefit a BSA unit." IF the money earning application is approved for affiliating your self with scouting then you HAVE permission from the council to do so. If you do not file, or are not approved, then it is not allowed for you to wear the uniform. It is the council that gets to determine if they wish to take the liability exposure not the unit or a unit volunteer who decides.

We sometimes have to consider not only what the safety factor is with our scouts (always the first consideration) but what the weather conditions could do to our equipment. Having an exiciting and suvivable day on the water where we snap a $2000 mast in half is not a good day for sailing. The same as true of an exiciting campout where tents get destroyed. So anytime you have an activity planned you should know what criteria requires a Plan-B and have that plan ready in advance.

Is this article really about the uniform or about modifying the uniform? It's about personal gear isn't it?. Even if you compare it to the BSA; has underwear, flashlights, sunglasses, etc. ever been considered as uniform pieces in Boy Scouting?

Venturing is a BSA program by the very fact that it is a specific program within the BSA. It does have a uniform, in fact it has several. It is simply up to each crew what it will be, and if or when it will be worn. While it does not have ranks it does have a recognition program with a definite progression to it. It also has many of the same recognitions available in Boy Scouting. While Sea Scouting has uniforms and salutes, it is not military in nature. First technically, maritime services such as the Navy and Coast Guard are not military. Military refers to soldiers (Army). (see Websters Dictionary), secondly the Sea Scouts do not kill people or break things (in essence that is the goal of the military, and I am glad they do that better than any other military on earth). Structurally the Sea Scout program is as varied as Venturing. Many Sea Scout Ships do not focus on boating per se. There are Ships that focus on SCUBA, Marine Biology, Conservation, Oceanography, Boat building, Boating maintenance and repair, etc. I never said that a Venturing Crew should be larger than a pack or troop. I said that statistically that Crews are losing scouts faster than either packs or troops. If you look at the the declining membership of Venturing you see that they have lost a larger percentage of members than the other two traditional programs of Scouting. This is caused by a loss in both retention and recruitment. While I congratulate you for your membership please remember that I did not say that EVERY crew lost members. I said that nationally Venturing is losing a higher percentage of members. In any average they will be units above and below the line. Out of curiosity when was the crew at 35 and when was it at 50. If it was 35 first then staistically you have a 43% increase. If it was 50 and then 35, then you have about a 30% decrease. So to say 35 to 50 can go either way. Still to have 35 or more active youth members in a crew is awesome. Does your council offer VLSC, Or Kodiak, or Kodiak X?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Once again .. The difference is between having permission to represent the BSA and not having permission. If you do not wear the BSA uniforms, or use the BSA's name or symbols to show connection to the BSA, and someone gets hurt on YOUR hoagie then YOU might get sued, but that is the risk YOU accepted when deciding to sell hoagies to the public. But since the BSA was not connected to the product or activity then YOU cannot cause the BSA to be included in YOUR legal problem.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Stosh, you didn't say a rotating PL you said INSTRUCTOR. "Boys of this age always like to get left out of the group" What age boy in what world WANTS to be left out of his social group? "I find it difficult to see where I ever said they couldn't" You said that aged based patrolsd would not allow it. "There are 16 year olds who like to climb rocks and other 16 year olds that like to play chess." What part of age/skill based patrols keep them from doing that? No accusations have been made, at leasst not in my posts. I have only presented information from the BSA training and resources. It seems you are far more amiable to the sharing of ideas if they are not in support of following the program. If you learn more about things that do not follow the scouting program by sharing with people who do not follow it, imaginge how much can be learned about the program by sharing with people who do follow it. EagleDa, please explain this for me. "Yes, it is true that the PLC can actively provide for the new scout patrol when the adult tells them that is what they have to do. Is n't the scoutmaster supposed to coach and councsel the SPL to help him understand leadership and citizenship. Isn't teaching him to be aware of the needs of ALL the patrols and not just the older or just the younger scouts part of that training? Doesn't the confidence for being successful at new challenges come partly from learning and practicing skills and then applying them? Isn't that what you do at troop meetings? As for your bike riding example, I don't think anyone has posted anything against using your resources have they? The exceptions should not create the rules. I think the rest of the post has little to do with the Patrol Method or the tired program level. It is a shopping list of exceptions isn't it? There would be no need to drop the 3 patrol levels for the scout who build the garden. Are you suggesting that if you followed the three patrol levels that scouts would feel good about themselves? Based on what data? If you have twelve scouts who want more adventure than the other scouts it would seem like a time to start Venture Patrols wouldn't it? Just a thought. BW

If you follow the New Scout Patrol framework they are in the NSP until they achieve First Class. Then you look at age and abilities for how long they stay in the Experienced Patrol level. The BSa program suggests that after a scout would progress to a Venture level patrol anytime after the age of 13 when they have sufficient skills for high adventure activities. So it is not just about age it is a balance of age and ability. It becomes the Scoutmasters respponsibility to know the characteristics of each scouts and help them to be in the right program level at an appropriate time. This is a great aide to skill development by being able to show a scout the benefits of obtaining advanced skills in order to move to a higher level of adventure. remember peer pressure can be a positive force not just a negative one. Rememner the New Scouts still have their Troop Guide as well as the ASMfor New Scout Patrols. In addition they do not have to be with the older scouts ALL the time. You can still have a combined program at campfires, prayer services, and even some games. They do not have to be with the older scouts continually to benefit from them, and also remember that they are in the NSP for a very short time frame. Usually only a year or even less. It's just to allow them time to gain the basic skills so that they can be better prepared for their scouting experience.