Bob White

Basementdweller are you asking about courses within the BSA, outside of the BSA, related to leadership skills, related to outdoor skills, job specific? To simply ask for all advanced training is like asking what all can you find in a grocery store. Can you be a little more specific?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is a dicussion forum right? Barry My response was NOT to LisaBob or to the comment she made. It was to CA_Scouter. Using those quotes out of context like that is misleading. Using them to support your opinion was deceiving. Here is a point that I think you overlooked. I pointed out I was willing to reconsider my view if anything I wrote in the post that CA commented on was incorrect. I seem to be the only one willing to do that. And yet no one, not CA or LisaBob or you, have even addressed any of those points. I have not called anyone names, or impuned anyone. All I have said was that from what LisaBob shared, it is likely that a youth, who we are supposed to be serving, was denied his advancement for reasons not allowed by the BSA. They may have made a mistake, something that no one else seems to be willing to consider simply because the error may have been made by adults. BUT thye have no problems accepting with out any evidence that the error was made by the Scout. Very sad. While LisaBob chose not to give details, she has given us the reason the board did not advance the scout. And the fact is the things she points out are not requirements. Saying they followed the book and showing how they folowed the book are two different things. To say that she is protecting the confidentiality of the scout is illogical. Granted it's her choice, but she chose to post it on a discussion forum, certainly she cannot be surprised that there is discussion, or that not everyone on the Internet was going to agree with her. But for so many to revert to name calling is whatis unscoutlike not having a different point of view. And you will please note it did not happen in any of my posts.

Let me see if I have this right. You suspect that some members in your charter organization, that the charter organization selected and approved, stole from the CO. And that while you have told the police, there has been no conviction of these people for any crime (has there even been an arrest?), and you want the council to remove their national membership based on your accusations only. Otherwise you are going to sue them. Is that about it? And yes, I think attending training and learning about the charter organization role and responsibilities, as well as what the role and responsibilities of the council, would keep you and the other upset parents from believing that this is the Councils responsibility and not your own charter organization's. IF, you were to go at this logically rather than emotionally what specific rule do you think the scout executive violated in the performance of his job? If you try to sue the council what specific responsibility of the council were they derelict in. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The charter concept which gives ownership and responsibility to the charter organization has existed since 1916. It is not a secret among any adult leader who has taken basic training. I am unsure what you wnat the Council executive to do? Remove the leader? The leader was selected and approved by the charter organization not by the council executive. If the Charter organization doesn't what them then THEY can remove them from their unit. You want the scout exec to go after the thieves? He is not a police officer. He was not the person who was robbed so he has no legal standing to press charges. The CO was robbed so the CO is required to press the charges. This is not a BSA rule, this is the law of your community. What exactly do want the scout executive to do for the unit that the unit is not already authorized to do? I am sorry but you do not need to know how to go after the scout executive, what you need is a better understanding of the role of the charter organization. You need to attend basic scout leader training.

LisaBob, Did you not post the reasons for turning the scout away in your second post? You did not find the scout articulate and you did not like the answers to some of your questions. But the questions you mentioned were unrelated to the advancemenrt requirements. While I understand your frustration, but I hope you consider the scout's frustration and how he is the child and tha adults are there to help. In hindsight are there ways you think the board could have approached this situation to bring things to...if not a better solution, at least to one that met the policies of the BSA?

It is a council policy in councils where that is done. The reason is they are trying to solve a problem of units not filing advancement reports. The Scout Badge was never a rank.

Thank you for the additional information. It was enough to be able to give you accurate information. You are incorrect in placing the problem or the solution on the local Council scout executive. You were given accurate information, this was not his responsibility. The Scout unit and the leaders belong to the charter organization. The leaders were approved and selected by the charter organization. The money taken belonged to the charter organization. If you wish to see charges brought against these volunteers then the charter organization is going to have to file the charges because the Council and the BSAa were not the ones they stole from. If you wish to see the volunteers removed from the unit then all the charter organization has to do is remove them (you as the unit leader do not have the authority.) It would need to be done by the institution head, charter rep, or committee chair. Then they inform the scout executive of their action. After the charter organization files charges if the volunteers are found guilty of the crime then you can inform the council of the conviction and the BSA will consider permanently barring them from membership. Your charter organization has complete control and authority over this situation. You are not correct in believing that the the Scout executive has done anything improper in this situation and so it would not be appropritae to guide you to anothe level of administration when it is your charter organization that was responsible for taking action. I hope the situation will improve soon for your scouts. BW

CA Perhaps you could share anything in the post that you found inaccuarate. I would be happy to reconsider any point that you can refute with evidence from LisaBob's posts or my own. I am sorry you see this as arrogance, but there seems to be a bunch of folks who with no evidence that the adults did anything right, are more than happy to say that the scout was wrong. Based on what requirement not being completed?

What the rules of membership say John is that if the unit allows scouts from outside of the faith of the CO that they cannot require a scout to participate in religious worship that is not of his own faith. So for instance, if a Presbyterian church that charters a scout unit cannot require a scout who is not of that faith to attend their Sunday Presbyterian worship service.

LisaBob, please rest assured that the role of mentor was neither offered nor implied on my part. You have no more presented evidence that the Scout failed than you have that the bor members did their job correctly. No one knows if you were confrontational with the scout in your approach, no one knows if you asked clear and understandable questions. No one knows what the personal relationship is between the scout and individual members of the bor that might have made him uncomfortable or uncommunicative. Here is what we we do know... nothing you said about the scout suggests that a BSA requirement was not completed. And to deny him advancement if the requirements are done is a violation of the BSA advancement policies that the bor is responsible for following. And if he did the requirements then you can't very well write a letter saying that he didn't. And if you explain to him the appeal process availabe to him, then your decision would likely be overturned by the next review level. What John offered is correct, BUT those instructions from the advancement manual are for the adult not the scout. They tell what the bor members are to do and accomplish, the scout never sees this handbook and has no need to. The purpose of the handbook is to train and control the behaviour of the adults not the scout. I would agree that I would be a poor choice for you as a mentor, as would any stranger on the Internet (especially the ones willing to always agree with you, since you can learn nothing new from them.) But I think it would benefit you to find someone local willing to challenge what you think your are doing right, to help you think about how you could have done it better, and to gain a clearer understanding of the role a bor plays in the process.

I would like someone to explain how communication skills fit into the Scout Spirit requirement. No one ever said that the adult was always wrong. But it seems to be a regular strategy by many posters on this board to blame everything and everyone else (including the scouts they are supposed to be serving) rather than take responsibility for their own actions. Nothing that LisaBob has told us suggests that the scout did not complete a requirement. Rather the adults became frustrated with the scouts communication skills that day, and rather than coach or councel him through a non-requirement, they chose to not pass him AND they did so in a way, that by her description, violates the BSA advancement policies. Would a memntor help her, quite probably. Are strangers on the Internet a good place to find mentors? No. Would training and a better understanding of youth and the program help the committee. I think more knowledge serves everyone better, don't you.

How could it be adding a requirement if it is AFTER they give the scout the award? It is not a requirement it is a ceremony element.

Early spring when many rivers are running high, fast, and frigid do to melt off is no time for the untrained to be on them in canoes. My tip would be to get lessons. Start your canoe experience in small bodies of water with little current and qualified instruction. Build up you level of adventure as your skills and experience increase. There were 99 canoe related fatalities in 2006, operator error was the prime cause, 75% of those who died were not wearing PFDs. Don't go if you don't know what you are doing. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

In order to support diversity is a unit required to be diversive in EVERTHING they do? If a troop of Baptist scouts serves members of different nationalities, physical abilities, mental capabilities, income levels, etc., are they not embracing diversity simply because they share the same faith? When you ask 'is it right?' who do see getting to decide what right is? If the BSA has no problem with the policy, and the charter organization has no problem, and the law has no problem, then who are these other people to say what is right or wrong?

Number 1, because there are three times more adults present then scouts so the odds are better that the adult screwed up. Number 2, the low number of leaders who are trained and know how to do a board of review correctlty. Number 3, by the time the scout gets to the bor he has been tested several time, the members of board have not. Number 4, in this case not one thing has been posted by LisaBob that shows that the scout did not complete a requirement, and that is what has to happen befpre the board can choose to not advance the scout. Number 5, not one thing posted by LisaBob on this incident shows that the members of the board knew of, or followed, the required actions for denying a scout advancement. Number 6, when things go wrong the first thing a responsible leader does is look at what they might have done wrong or could have done better that could have precipitated the problem. Poor leaders just blame others and never evaluate their own behavior. I don't blame adults I get as much information as I can about the problem and look at who did what steps right or wrong. The fact that in most cases with bor problems the adults did not follow the program rules is their problem not mine.

Would those that care follow the rules, so that the scout had a better chance of achieving the recognition based on what he was required by the BSA to do, as opposed to what the bor wanted him to do? I would hope so.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Acco40 The program offers what seems a reasonable solution to your multi program problem. One assistant scoutmaster focuses on the New Scout program while another focuses on the Venture Patrol program while the scoutmaster focuses on the experienced Patrol program. Would this be a workable plan that a unit with trained leaders could incorporate? PS my apologizes for making light of Kudus plan for solving 90% of "what is wrong in scouting". Now that I realize that the patrols will only be 300 feet apart I can see how all our problems will easily disappear. If at all possible could we keep the history buffs 300 yards away still?

It depends. There are several options depending on the problem. Can you be a little more specific?

Being a Scouter for 20 years is no guarantee that you will be a scouter for 21 years. Like an old water heater an old scouter can work great one day and have his bottom rust out the next and leak all over the floor. I would rather train a good leader to be a better one than try to change an older leader's ways.

The time Schiff is referring to was a long, long, long, time ago. Ignore it. This is not about serving a select few. Wood Badge is about serving more of scouting and the community by giving people as many useful leadership tools as we can as soon as they are ready. Go and enjoy. BW

Books tell us the rules. They are not going to tell you how to share the rule or how to counsel people when they don't like the rule. That is not what rule books do. Whether the unit leader explains it to the scout or not does not alter the role of the Unit Commissioner, nor was it a part of your "wrinkle". If I were the unit leader I would explain it to the scouts in the unit so that this situation did not arise. If the friends that invited the scout are all of one faith, and they are in a unit of scouts of all of one faith, and they meet at the church or that faith, and yet did not know that the troop was just for memmbers of that faith, then the unit has some real communication and identity problems that they should be fixing. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

oops, had to type onthe run. here we go without typos. Joni I simply asked for clarification because you wrote "my husband, the scoutmaster and the assistant scoutmaster". I was unable to tell if you were referring to two or three people, so I asked. So we still have the fact that you don't get along well with the unit leaders you have worked with, and for 5 long years are unable to decide whether to quit or to continue your anguish. My recommendation is to take action of some kind rather than to continue to be unhappy and to share that unhappiness with others while you threaten to quit. Again you could have chosen 5 years of doing things you enjoy, rather than choosing 5 years of being miserable and thinking about taking action without making a decision.

All I was expecting was that if a participant or staff wore a BSA uniform to this event that they would were the entire uniform not a mis of uniforms and that they would wear it correctly. Especially on the staff. I anticipated that an advanced training course would have a staff with advanced skills and knowledge. I also wasn't expecting such weak support of the uniform, the advancement requirements, the ceremonies, the traditions. Rather than learning more information I recieved none.

Gunny I think you misunderstood my answer, or I misunderstood your question or both, so allow me to rephrase it and if your question still isn't answered please ask again in more detail. In the case mentioned by SSScout only two possible scenarios can exist. The unit leader who told the youth he could not join due to a membership policy was (A) Correct, and the policy was made and supported by the IH. (B) Incorrect, and that policy was not made or supported by the IH. The only way to tell is to talk to the IH and see if that is the charter organization's policy or not. If (A) then the IH has the authority to have that policy. The BSA recognizes their right to select their own membership within the parameters of the BSa membership regualtions. If (B) then the IH has a responsibility to correct their unit leaders knowledge of the the IH's membership policiy so that the youth can reapply. SSScout referred to "troop leadership", I said Scoutmaster, because the scoutmaster is the Troop Leader that signs the application form and so is the most likely person to have shared this policy with the visiting youth. While the "troop leadership" may have their own opinions of who should or should not be in the troop they have no authority to set those policies. They are volunteer workers in the Charter Organization's Troop. Mmembership is not determined by the Troop leaders. It is determined by the BSA and the IH. Policies are recorded in books. Don't blame me for that, it wasn't my idea. Who can be a member and who can determine that, are matters of policy not opinion. Did either scenario answer your question?

Share on what, the BSA policies? I have done that. But since you refuse any details you leave posters no choice but to guess at what you did and why you did it. Everyones posts so far are just guesses not just mine. My guess is that the scout has a signed handbook and you have no evidence that he has not completed every requirement. Until you can say he didn't do a requirement then the BSA policy and procedures says the adults on the board did not do their role correctly. I think you owe the scout another chance immediatley. Either find a requirement that was not approved or one that was not performed correctly, or pass him. To stop his advancement because you were unable to relate well with him is not within the role or responsibility of the bor.