Bob White

Buffalojoe, A Catholic seminarian working on a "religious award" for wiccans and pagans? Interesting, I would have thought the whole idolatry thing, not to mention the 1st Commandment, might cause you a little conflict. This might save you and your friend some time. Religious award requirements must be submitted to the BSA by the religions official national or international orgnaization. Wiccans/pagans have no such national organization. You and your friend are not "qualified" to submit a religious award (from any religion) for recognition by the BSA. While you might offer it to the various wiccan/pagan groups for their use, until they have an officially recognized central organization they will be unable to submit their awards to the BSA for display on the Scout uniform. Good luck on your project, I hope it does not detract from your catholic studies (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That would be up to your Training Committee Chair to decide. The procedure is no different today than it was in the 1990's. The leader at that time, as now, has a form that they can carry with them to various events (the knot requires more than just the training courses) that qualify for the recognition requirements and get them signed as they participate. Once the requirements are met the card is signed by the District Training Chair and sent in to the office council for recording. I know this process has not changed since the late 70's. I would not be surpised if the local training committee chair would want the leader to complete the current courses and events, unless he can produce documentation to show that all the requirements were met in the past.

We had a 21 year old on our Wood Badge staff in 2006 and he was one of the best trainers I have ever worked with. We also had a 20 year old as a particpant and he did a great job on his ticket. Both of these young men had extensive leadership experience before coming. You are the best judge as to whether or not you are ready for this course. The question is do you think you are ready.

Children hiding from rescuers did not start with the "stranger danger" program. As an 11 year old scout I was involved in a search for a missing child and we were taught then that a lost child will often not answer back out of fear, even when they hear their own name being called, and that was years prior to the stranger danger program. Learning who to trust is an important lesson at any age. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"If someone has signed up to be a Scout leader & gone to all the training they should, then why wouldn't we trust them to do the right thing and do their best until they give us a reason not to?" Didn't you already answer your own question???? Because trusting everyone who signs up as a scout leaders is as incorrect as trusting no one!

If you truly believe that trust should be freely given up front until someone proves to be untrustworthy then why teach your children to not trust strangers? Why not tell them that if someone they don't know loses their dog as asks for their help they should trust them and go along? After all that person hasn't shown themselves to be untrustorthy Why not let just anyone babysit your kids? Why do job interviews? Why warn kids about chat rooms? Why ask potential unit leaders for references, and have criminal background checks done on them? If you truly believed that people should be trusted why not let scouts determine for themselves whether they have scout spirit as the handbook says? You may say that you should trust people until they prove otherwise, but you don't really.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sounds like a unit that you should get the Scout Reach executive involved in as well.

My recommendation would be talk to more people than just the Scoutmaster. Talk with the committee chair, the charter representaive, the institutional head, talk with a couple of the scouts, talk with a couple boys who quit. Talk with the Roundtable commissioner, is the unit attending? Talk with the scout office, are the scouts advancing? Talk with the district trainig chairman, who in the unit is trained? Before you suggest setting up the tent at the school find out what caused the scouts to leave. Don't worry about putting more passengers on a sinking ship until AFTER the leak is fixed.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you coached a football team how many of the players would be given a position to play and taught how to play it? If you directed a band how many would have a position to play and be taught how to play it. If you directed a choir, how many of the singers have specific parts to sing and be taught how to sing it? If you were the chairman of committee how many people on the committee would have specific responsibilities to take care of, and then taught how to do it? If you ran a business, how many of the employees would have a specific job to be responsible for and taught how to do it? If you want people to have a purpose for being part of group and a reason for showing up then they need to fell needed and important to the group, so in scouting we give them each specific positions of responsibility and then teach them how to do it. The Leadership Development Method of the BSA You are not making every scout a chief, you are giving every scout a position of responsibility because on a team everyone plays a position. It makes each scout responsible for the success of their patrol or troop, and it gives each scout the opportunity to grow and develop.

I would ask the juniour leaders if they thought they coud keep on eye on him and help him when he needed it and to make sure he did not feel alone at meal times. I am confident they would handle the situation correctly. I will admit that I never had only one scout from a patrol show up. BW

jblake, I am sorry to hear that you feel that what's important is who writes the ticket. My understanding of citizenship was that what matters is the choice one makes to either abide by the law or break the law. And that the choice comes from one's character. Are the youth protection rules of scouting any different? As far as this comment "unfortunately not every Venturing Crew in the BSA program falls under the auspices of your tutelage or programming." The solution to the problem you propose, whether real or imagined, requires neither my tutalage or my program. It can be resolved by using the scouting program. The things I share are not my creation but things I learned through reading the scout handbooks and from training. And I have to tell you that in the years I have spent as a unit leader I don't the problems you have. I don't even have the problems you make up. It's nothing mystical about me, it's just that if you follow the program and pay attention to what it tells you about the nature of young people then you don't have the problems that you and others seem plagued with. Having scouts in different stages of ability and growth involved in different activities was not my idea. It's a Scouting thing that has been taughgt for decades. I merely use it, and I don't have the problems you talk about. We have a co-ed unit that has scouts from 15 to 20 years old and I rarely even see parent except at special ceremonies or ship parties. And the other leaders and I don't have parents calling us complaining about ANYTHING. In the last thirty plus years I last had a parent call me with a complaint or concern in 1981. Mainly because they understand the program their children are in and the know and trust the unit leadership. Have you ever considered that the problems you suggest unit environment you created within the local unit? Scouting is a set of learned skills for the leader as well as the scout, and it isn't filled with the problems you suggest. It's when you stray from the program that you open the door to these problems. The real world is what you make it. If you chose to stray of the course you will run into obstacles that the designated path avoids.

The real world is what you make it. Two scouts can't go camping as a patrol because of what? Splitting wood? We are talking about enough wood for two people. Even if they had to split what they needed they don't need that much. In fact if someone taught them to use a backpack stove they probably would not need to split wood at all. Building a fire? Just how many scouts do you need to build a fire Hotdesk? Cooking? Scouts in the unit you serve cannot cook for two people? Dishes? How many scouts in the unit you serve are need to do the dishes for just TWO people? Setting up a campsite? This sounds like the lead in to a joke but come on hotdesk, how many scouts does it take in the unit you serve to set up ONE tent?! Packing gear? This is a problem for two people? You understand that you pack for yourself no matter how many are going and then you only add the patrol gear you need fo the size of the patrol going...TWO PEOPLE hot desk, what all patrol gear do you need? Garbage lines, Ho messy can two people be that they cannot Pick up their own litter??? There is no more work to two people camping than eight people. If you are going to constantly reallign patrols then why bother making patrols in the first place. I don't think you understand the concept of the patrol method.

Again, we Don't have 14 year olds and 20 year olds "hanging around" a lot together. For the most part our older scouts operate different boats than our younger scouts. They certainly aren't rooming together. Yes they do some things as a group bt not a lot of things. Different program activities for differnet ages and stages of development.

"but there was far less training required of adults back in the 70s to be considered trained." Actually it was the same. Cornerstone Training, as it was called in the seventies took just as long as todays New leader Essentials and Scoutmaster Leader Specific, along with a pre outdoor course and an outdoor weekend experience training.

In my neighborhood the speed limit is 30 miles and hour. In one of the other Mate's neighborhood the sped limit is 25 miles and hour. Same car, same town, same people, different limits. I guess some people might be confused by that but here is what I do. When I'm in my neighborhhod I follow the law for my street. When I am in the other neighborhood I follow the law for that street. Hypocritical, no, just a different speed limit. When I am on a Boy Scout activity I follow the rules for Boy Scouting, When I am on a Venturing activity I follow the rules for Venturing. Why is this such an issue? Different program, different rules.

"Ever have a boy call you up crying because he couldn't make it to the meeting that night? Yep " What does training do for you at that point?" It helps you to understand the characteristics of youth and how to use the methods of scouting to deal with them. It teaches you counseling skills to help in situations like this. You took the training, did you get the scout through this sitauation OK? That's how the trainin helps. "Ever have a boy go before a judge to have the custody arrangement adjusted so he could go with his fellow scouts to summer camp?" Never. "What does training say about that? Who expects the BSA training to tell you what do do if a scout is arrested? Doesn't it tell you how to teach values to scouts to help thenm avoid that situation. It does teach you how to counsel scouts and how to know when a situation is beyond your training and to turn the situation over to others with those specific skills. So did you do OK or did you get him the help he needed. Either way Scout training played a role. "Ever have boys hanging around as adult leaders 4 and 5 years later because they don't want to leave?" Lots of times. "Where's it written in Scout literature that promotes that?" Why in the world would you need that written down somwhere. Did you not know that some scouts become scout leaders? What exactly would you need the BSA literature to tell you about on that topic? Remember that I NEVER called any volunteer unimaginative, uneductated morons. I have never spoken of volunteers in this or any program in that way.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I was also a Scout in the 60's and a Scout leader since the 1970s The percentage of trained leaders seems to be noticeably less to me. The program changes have been largely cosmetic, The heart of the program and its methods have changed very little. The attraction of a good unit program today is as strong as it was in the 60s. There just are not as many good units as there used to be. Needs and characteristics of kids have changed very little. Kids still resond to respect and adventure. But technology has chaged tremendously and so has the ooportunity for kids to be entertained electronically. Unit leaders need to understand the needs of the youth. Just going camping is not enough to capture the imagination of most kids for very long. One poster askes, "why do we need to crank up the thrill?" That gap in understanding the needs of scout aged youth is why youth are quitting units or not joining scouts. "Why cant kids do it for themselves?" Because they are kids, and they need to be taught how to do it, there is a purpose for adult leadership in a unit. Scout units do not lose membership because of kids who do not know how to be scouts, but from adults who do not understand how to lead scouts. The BSA knows this and spend more resources on teaching adults how to lead Scouting than on teaching kids how to be kids. We all have the same program, he all have the same training information, We all have the same program materials. Yet some units thrive and some units fold. What is the difference between them? The adults selected to lead the local unit program.

"Once an application is complete and accepted by the unit, the boy is covered by the insurance and is eligible to participate in scout events." That is incorrect. if you check with your local scout professional you will find that any youth who is a potential recruit can participate in a troop event and has the same accident insurance coverage as a registered member. You do not have to have a registration in hand or at the office for him to be covered by the BSA accident insurance.

When you say the minimum amount of camping do you mean the required amount of camping?

If there are 8 members of the Hawk Patrol and when the campout comes up only 4 can attend, then the Hawk Patrol is a patrol of 4, if 5 attend then they are a patrol of 5, and if 2 attend they are a patrol of 2. There is no reason to reorganize the patrols. If the Yankees and the White Sox have a game and the Yankes go through their entire pitching staff they do not get to borrow a pitcher from the Sox. What makes leaders think that patrols are different? How do you expect scouts to form patrol identities if you do not respect the integrity of the patrol? Why should a scout be concerned about making events if their absence has no effect on the patrol because you are just going to move folks around to fill in the gaps. That is not what you were taught about the Patrol method was it? At least that is not what the BSA teaches.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

While it requires interaction it is still a cub scout advancement and as a Scoutmaster you have no authority over advancement that takes place in a unit you do not lead. So if the Pack wants to award the AOL to a cib Scout or cubscouts that have not earned it you have no say in the matter. But once the boy ins in the troop you can review his knowledge of the elements of the Scout badge, have a scoutmaster conference with him and see that he has earned his Scout Badge correctly. But the pack can do what they want while he is a Cub Scout. Wjhile the pack can present the Aol you do not have to give him the Scout Badge at the crossover if you as the SM feel that the Scout Badge requirements were not met. The Pack has no authority to give him the Scout Badge or to tell the troop that they must.

The AOL is a CUB SCOUT award. If you are a Scoutmaster then what happens in the Pack has nothing to do with you does it? If the Scout joins the troop he needs to earn the Scout Badge. The Scout Badge requires a SM Conference, if you did not get to do one with Scout yet, then do one now that he is in the troop. I do not see the issue here.

So if it isn't a part of the program and is a problem caused by parents outside of the program instruction, then isn't the solution simply for leaders to lead according to the program? Gern What I think has changed is the opportunity for youth to experience adventure. Times have changed and a campout at the state park will only work so many times and then you have to crank up the thrill. I think there are a lot of leaders who make scouts experience the same year of scouting over and over and over again, and when they get bored an quit blame it on a symphony of other people and things rather then on their repetitive, mundane program. Units that don't make every age of scout do the same things at the same places every year don't have membership loses.

I have faith in God, but I am not going to entrust my son to just anyone who walks up to me and claims to be Him. Trust requires some knowledge of the person. Trust comes from a relationship. Gunny only refers to trust ion the title and then never brings it up again. He spends the rest of the post asking if we believe some leaders do not try to do their best. Of course there are. We see posts here all the time of people who say they know the scouting program but don't use it. You cannot say that they are doing their "best". They are doing what they want to do, and that is not autoimatically the best they can do, it is simply what they choose to do. A leader with ample opportunity to attend training who chooses not to go is not doing their best. A Leader who goes but chooses not to employ what they learbed at the training cannot honestly say they are doing their best. I never said that I do not trust ANY adult leader to do there best. I said that I don't trust ALL adult leaders to do their best. I don't know what point Ed is trying to argue but it does not seem related to anything Gunny asked about.