Bob White

"Once again Bobby you missed the point, this kid knew he did not complete the requirements and he failed to show leadership and responsibility that Eagle scouts should" Not only did I not miss it, It was not there. You completely fabricated that information and posted it as a fact. Not a single thing in Mike's post even alludes to what you posted. You took it upon yourself to construct a fantasy regarding what happened, and then you needlessly and without a morsel of evidence attacked the character of a boy you know nothing about. You should be ashamed of yourself. Mike says that he was not there and I am quite certain that you were not there either. He said that the board chairman and the entire board determined that the error was not the scout's but was the fault of the Scoutmaster and troop committee for taking one term of office and saying that it counted for all the leadership requirements. You have absolutely no idea what leadership skills and character this scout has, and that topic was not even broached by Mike at any time. Your attack on this young man is deeply disturbing. Your behavior contuinues to consist of nothing more than personal insults without the slightest contribution of positive or accurate information on the scouting program. I do not care that you say you "used to be" a professional, I care only about what you are, and if you are someone so callously bent on trying to insult me that you would make up lies to slander the character of a boy then you have nothing to offer on this forum that I care to read. You have joined one other equally uneeded poster on my ignore list.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

More folks need to actually read the Handbook.

allangr1024 Did no one tell you about Introduction to Outdoor Skills Training that is part of the Basic Training sequence for Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters? That is truly unfortunate if your local district or council did not explain even the basic training courses to you. At that course they teach you all the outdoor skills and requirements for Tenderfoot through First Class. "I agree with the poster who said the requirements are poorly worded." They would not be confusing if people read the Handbook. The Handbook gives reference pages that teach the skill and explain the requirement. It is confounding the number of people who only read the few pages that list the requirements and completely ingnore the huindreds of pages that teach the skills.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You are right Buffalo Skipper I thought you meant on this spefic BOR decision. I apologize if I misunderstood. I agree that there is A LOT wrong in the unit for this to happen. And finding someone willing to try to turn this entire group around will be needed.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What I don't understand is why they just don't go out on a winter hike or a field observation and complete the requirement correctly. Heck I could sit in my dining room and look out the window and see 10 wild animals in the course of an afternoon in the middle of a residentila neighborhood. And even in the winter its possible to do tree identification. The scoutmaster needs some assistamce either throgh training or to better understand the training he has recieved. And he needs to understand that the list doesn't have to be filled the same day. If the Scout sees a Red Squirrel one day and a Canada Goose two days later they both go on the list.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

With over 95% of scouts not reaching the Eagle Rank to think that Eagle Ranks are being handed out willy nilly is obsurd. To blame these kinds of choices by the Eagle bor on a perceived deteriotaion of scouting is uninformedand unsupportable. "To state that the BSA is afraid of lawsuits is also bogus" I agree, thank goodness not a single poster made such a statement. As far as bringing in the UC or the CR that really isn't relevant as as Eagle boards are not a function of unit but of the council and all Eagle boards have a representative of the Council/District Advancement Committee sitting on it, and the decision is required to be unanimous. It appears that the council rep when he was unsure of the procedure and called for more information. I think that it likely that it would have played out much the same way in any council based on the criteria used in appeals. I would ask BadenP to stop trying to make this a personal thing with me. I did not write the rules or the appeals guidelines. I have however served at the behest of the national as the chaiman of an Eagle appellate BOR and so I am very familiar with the process and with what is likely to win in appeal. I guarantee you if it comes down to an error caused by an adult then the board will have little choice but to make a judgement that benefits the scout. It seems some a few scouters forget who serves whom in the Boy Scout Program. We are the adults, we are the ones who are supposed to know how the program Methods and procures work and we are supposed to doing it correctly for the benefit of the youth. When the adult makes a mistake you do not punish youth. The Scout's only error was that he trusted the decision of the Scoutmaster in signing off requirements that the SM should not have signed. Trusting that the Scoutmaster was doing the right thing is not a punishable offense in this program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Once again it is important to read the Boy Scout Handbook beyond the few pages that list the reank requirements. Please read pages 89 through 97 regarding 2nd Class Rank requirement #5.

While youare correct the Scout did not fufill the requirement, the EBOR was also correct in recognizing that the problem was with the mismanagement of the advancement program by the Scoutmaster of the unit, and also recognizing that a denial of the advancemnt would have been overturned in appeal. So rather than spoil the scouts experience and memory of Scouting they approved the advancement and avoided the appeal. I would think that had the Scout been younger and had time to complete the missing requirement prior to his 18th birthday. But considering that there was not time to do this the board correctly chose nor to punish the scout for errors of the Scoutmaster.

If I were the Cubmaster of that Pack I would be looking to reorganize the 11 member den into two dens, one that incorporates the new scout. Giving the pack three Wolf dens of 8,6, and 6. This would allow any new cubs of this age group to be welcomed into the dens of 6 until they came up to a maximum of 8 scouts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Don't you love seeing the lessons of the bible replayed in modern life? Are you familiar with the biblical story of the Prodigal Son? For whatever reason a den leader walked away from her position in the pack leaving you to do your work and hers. I am sure that the work you did for with the pack is greatly appreciated. You stepped up and did more than your share, and there esteem for you is probably more than you will ever know. So now the lost Den Leader has returned and the Cubmaster is happy about her return, and has restored her to her previous place in pack, and you are angry because she ran out on everyone and has come back and the CM is not upset but instead is happy she has come back, and you feel that is is unfair to you. About the only thing missing here is a fatted calf . Do you recall what the lessons that this parable teaches? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagle 92, Are you suggesting every single good person in your community is already volunteering in the Scouting program and there is no one left? Or are you saying that most people in your scouting community are not good at selecting and recruiting more volunteer members? See I am betting that the problem is not the volunteers you don't have, it's that the volunteers you do have don't know how to recruit. And recruiting is a skill, and skills can be learned. What your scouting community lacks is not volunteers, it lacks someone to teach the skill of recruiting. Unless of course you believe that there are no good people to recruit from your area?

Lets look at the trhee situations you offer and see what the solution could be Bob. "1. Committee members felt that a Scout should not be allowed to pursue Eagle after they turned 17, because if the Scout really wanted/was Eagle material they would have completed the requirements before then (old committee). They were "tired" of Scouts cramming at the end of their Scouting careers." The committee has no say in the matter as this is a matter of BSA policy and it cannot be altered by the committee. Your jon as the Scoutmaser is to be the manager of the advancement program. You are in charge of advancement the committee plays a role but they gave no authority over the BSa policies, and it is your role to help them understand what those policies are. There are not asked to determine whether or not a scout should cram, I am sure when they crammed for their exams in highschool and college that no teacher was allowed to not pass them because they crammed. Just because they have personal issues should have no effect on your role as the mmanager of advancement. If they say they don't like scouts cramming simply remind them that are not asked to make that determination., They re restricted to determining if the scout followed the requirements. "2. CM felt the SPL wasn't doing a good job, because he wasn't running the PLC meetings as efficiently as they wanted." How would the committee member know? Committee embers are not suppposed to be at PLCs Bob, just the Scoutmaster and the PLC members. You need to get the Committee chair to get the committee members doing their job, and allow you to do your. Let committee members know that if they are needed aat a PLC they will be invited, unitil then it ios the SPLs meeting and not theirs. You will be happy to keep them informed as to the decisions of the PLC. 3. In the example you gave, interpreting the requirements (while I've not had to argue that a weather rock is "useful", I've had some other equally insane discussions)" Bob, when you read the handbook beyond the pages that the requirements are listed on you find the explanation of the requirement. in this case you will see examples of the kinds of camp gadgets that the scout can build. Hopefully you know what the scout has built long before he gets top a BOR because you were at the outing observing him when he built it and making sure he used the correct knots and that the items was useful BEFORE you alllowed the requirement to be signed off. Notice the commonality in all three cases that you provided Bob, The solution in each case was not the committee, but YOU taking a leadership action and responsibility as the Scoutmaster. There is nothing wrong in the unit that you cannot fix by applying leadership to the Methods of Scouting.

"The problem I have with tackin' the first aid requirements onto everything is that often da Motorboatin' MB counselor doesn't know enough himself to be able to teach or evaluate proper first aid. So it seems pretty natural for such a MBC to defer to others and the scout's prior skill. But that's not what's proper." As a boater I would have to take exception to that comment. You have bad boaters just as you will have bad doctors and bad scouters, etc.. But a competent boater, which I would hope a boating merit badge counselor would be, knows the dangers of the type of boat they operate and knows the safety and first aid precautions needed aboard that type of vessel. Which is precisely what that requirement is all about. (by the way the most common non-alcohol related injury aboard a motor boat is the same as aboard a sail boat or canoe.) And the role of the counselor is to see that the Scout has MET the requirements. If a Scout shows evidence of completion of the requireent to the counselor and the counselor accepts that evidence then he has "shown that he met the requirement". There is nothing in the BSA Advancement policies or procedures that requires the counselor to witness every activity the scout does in order to apply it to the requirement. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Brent regarding your question. The answer is Yes, IF the merit badge counselor chooses to accept the activity. As an example If I were at summer camp and the scout had just passed the swimm test at the pool and went to Canoeing then Swimming MB classes, showing his buddy tag that he just passed the swim test, then yes I would expect he would get credit in both classes for the same test. If however he had not been tested for two years and was coming to me as the canoeing merit badge counselor in his community and said that two years ago he passed the swim test I have the choice of accepting that test or having do a current one. (I would of course have him show me he can pass the test today.) But as the counselor it is my choice.

Whether a task is easy or hard depends just as much on the characteristics that the person doing the task has as those of the task itself. If you believe that a Scout would find little challenge or growth is a particular task then maybe that is somethihg the Scoutmaster should be sharing with the SPL as he counsels him on the leadership selections? The puropse of the POR is not to fulfill the advancement requirement, The purpose of the advancement requirement is to help the individual scout grow, The POR is simply a tool for that growth. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Consider having the two units share the cost if that is an issue. Think of the recognition program as a way of complimenting the scout for doing a good job. Can you only compliment someone once? Can only one person compliment him? The Pack and the troop are for the most part two different audiences, why not complimentthe scout in front of each group? I doubt the scout would mind, and I am sure that both audiences would enjoy seeing him rewarded, right? Heck I'd bring him to Roundtable and recogonize him there as well. Then I would submit it to the local paper. Nowhere does the program suggest that you should only give positive recognition one time right? When your son does something good do only you tell him, or does his mother, and then you tell his grandparents, and maybe the neighbor, and each congratulate him. What harm can you do the scouts by giving them as much positive reinforcement for a positive behavior as you can generate? Think of what that would do for the scouts self esteem!(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why do you assume that he can only receive the recognition once? Why could he not receive it in front of the pack AND in front of the troop?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

None of the people you listed have the slightest bit of authority to tell you that you can ignore the BSA Youth Protection rules. If I were you I would ask the DE to pick up the other scouts. He seems to have trouble putting your neck on the line, the least he can do is join you. And technically unless you have your son in the car you are only in violation of the rules when the first boy is in the car, and until you pisck the second one up. If you do have your son with you then you were never in violation of the rules so they did not need to sign anything and were silly to do so. Honestly as far as how many scouts you should pick up..that's between you and your wife.

No SctDad you have completed avoided my point. I did not say you could not help. I said first make sure the help that YOU want to provide is the help that is wanted by those responsible for managing the event. The mere fact that you saw some things that YOU would like to change does not mean that you can forge ahead and make those changes. I will ask again, what position on the distrcut do you currently hold or what work on the Day Camp have you been asked to do at this point? You want to counsel the camp director and yet you have no idea if he will be the camp director next time or of what instructions his superiors want himn to follow. You want to get the palnning started but who asked you to help plan the activity so far? At this point in time you are a customer, and until you are in managenment your responsibility is feedback, and your authority is nill. I applaud your enthusiasm but you lack direction and permission at the moment.

Bob S. 1. No Read the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual regarding the board of review. It is the board's job to make sure that the scout completed the requirements according to the handbook. So while they cannot say "here are ropes and spars lash together a useful camp gadget" as that would be restesting, they can say, "For one of your requirements you were to use lashings to construct a useful camp gadget. What did you make? This can be done with any requirement to see if the scout completed the requirements according to the BSA required elements. If the Scout did not then the board can withold the advancement until the requirements are completed correctly. 2. If they aren't then they have only themselves to blame. Why have they not been talking with the scoutmaster about the operations of the troop and the growth of the scouts? Do they only talk about what they do at the Committee meetings or are they asking questions of the Scoutmaster about the program. Is the adult treasurer talking to the youth treasurer? Is the adult equipment coordinator talkling with the youth quartermaster? Is the Advancement Chair talking to the SM and the SPL? If the Committee doesn't know what is going on in the troop then what are they doing? Is the scoutmaster going into the board before the scout and talking with the board members about the growth or growth needs of the scout? If not why not? Communications is an important part of leadership isn't it?

Eagle 92 I do not disagree that it is important to listen to feedback, but you must know that not all feedback is actionable. And it is the responsibility of those charged with the activity at the council and district level to make those determinations, not a unit volunteer. Something they may not have taught ad PDL is that if you try and press every person who has feedback into service then people are going to stop giving you feedback. I would hope that a Scoutmaster would give feedback on Summercamp. Does that mean you are going to try and put him or her to work on staff? What about their responsibilities as Scoutmaster??? Putting everyone who gives a suggestion to work is not always feasable nor is it the best place for that person to be. Just because a person thinks they know a strike when they see one does not automatically make them a good candate to be a pitcher or an umpire sometimes they are best left as a fan. I think we agree that if SctDad wants to help he should communicate his evaluation to those responsible and help where asked if he can. But to take it upon himself to do the things he is suggesting is simply not appropriate. It is not within his authority or responsibility. At this point in time he is the customer and not the manager.

"Your second link on age appropiate activities, it must have a black line through it to be OK to do. Fire building is listed and not appropiate for that age group as such not covered by BSA insurance if something goes wrong. That is incorrect. The age appropriate guidelines have no bearing on either accident insurance or liability protection. They are merely guidleines in helping units to determine what activities on average are recommended based on average stages of development for youth at the listed ages. They are not polices, they are not tied to aetiner insurance or liability. It is a program aid and nothing more. bfloyd Consider this. If you do not teach an eight year old the proper way and proper places to build a fire you may just find that they will experiment in their own, perhaps in the closet at home. Better you should teach them the right way and include a talk from a local firefighter on the dangers of misusing fire or being careless with matches and lighters. An 8 year old is old enough to understand.

What an assist unit leader does is dependent largely on the needs, strengths and weaknesses of the unit leader. As a Cub master I had an assist cubmaster for physical arrangements. He coordinated the set up and clean up of every pack event we had. There was an assistant for ceremonies. He gathered or built props and organized the ceremonies for pack events. There an assitant for Tiger cubs. She helped shepherd the Tiger leaders through their first year of den leadership. There was an assistant for program, who helped me with agendas and outside resources and subbed for me when I was not available. In a smaller pack I may not have needed so many assistants. So what you have assistants for depends on the needs of the leader and the program of the Pack. BW

You go into a McDonalds as a customer and have a bad meal. You have some things you can do. You can complain to the manager. You can write a letter to the owner and explain what happened and make some suggestions. Or you can choose not to be a customer. BUT...as a customer you have no authority to make job assignments, hire or fire, train, adjust the budget, make buying decisions, alter suppliers, plan their marketing etc. You are the customer with the rights and the priveledges of the customer, BUT NOT with the rights and the priviledges of management. Do not confuse the role of volunteer with a specifc chartering organization as the same as the role of a district/council volunteer. They are not the same. Unless SctDad is the CR he has no authority in District activities beyond that of a customer. Before SctDad does anything beyond sharing his evaluation and suggestions to those in a position to make changes, he will first need to be in one of those positions. Otherwise he is likely both wasting his time and interfering in functions he has no capacity in. If he wants to run the McDonalds he will need to become one of the managers of McDonalds.

"Bob White Sorry if I came across too strong, but I just wanted everyone to understand that Day Camp is not restricted to week long activities. I want to thank everyone for the help. I am going to talk to the young man this week and see if there is a chance to start planning right now. I am going to look into things like budget and requirements as we want to make sure that everything is right." Not a problem, I realized my error immediately after I posted which is why I removed the post. As far as what you plan to do, I would have to ask....WHY? Are you the DE for that diostrict? The District Chairraman? The Cub Activities Chairman for the District? A member of the District Activities Committee? Wanting to see change and being willing to help if called upon is one thing. Imposing your help when uninvited or attempting to change things not within your authority is something else entirely.