Bob White

Everyone seems to agree that having the scout explain how he would choose who to vote for is an appropriate question. I agree. However that is not the question that was asked. If what you want to know is what the scout has learned about choosing a representative then ask the scout what he has learned. For a panel of adults to ask a scout to tell them who specifically he intends to vote for is inapproporiate. Yes, the Scout has the right to shout his choice from the roof top, but that does give anone the right to ask him to tell who he is voting for in a secret ballot. To suggest that if the adults ask something they shouldn't that it is the scout's responsibility to stop them is just wrong. It is the adults responsibility to know better, and to know what they are supposed to be doing. This is a rude and coercive question whether that was the intent of it or not.

Consider this. How about asking questions that are directly related to the relements of scouting. Who a person chooses to vote for is a private matter and unrelated to scouting. Doing ones duty to his country is an element of scouting, and asking the scout about how he sees himself doing that as an adult is an open ended question that allows the scout a chance to give a more thoughtful answer that will give you more insight into his character. When adults act inappropriately with scouts, whether in actions or questions, I would hope more skilled adult leaders would step in and perform their responsibility to protect the scout. Redirect or remove the adult with the inappropriate behavior. The time to stop the inapproriate behavior is at the moment it happens. The time to counsel or correct the offender is privately, away from the Scouts. Of course the BEST thing to do is to do a better job of selecting and training your unit leaders so that this issue does not arise.

scoutldr, You do not need to be an attorney to understand insurance. You no doubt have insurance yourself and you know what it covers or you would not have bought it, and yet you admit you are not an attorney. This is not about criticizing the scout, it is about the leaders understanding of the BSA advancement policies and procedures and being able to understand at what times you can use the uniform and images of the BSA and when you cannot. Nor does it have to do with being proud of the scouts. Are you any less proud of them when they park cars at a rally for a political candidate as when they pick up litter at a park. Yet at one they are allowed to wear the uniform at another they are not.

Jblake Do not confuse a troop or patrols service project with an individual's service project. One is done inside the sphere of scouting and the other outside. When a troop or patrol, as an activity of the unit, provides a service they may (depending on certain elements of the activity) be allowed to wear the uniform. For instance, A unit that is removing litter from a local park may wear the uniform. A unit that is helping a School church or community organization with a project can wear their uniform. A scout who is doing a service projcet outside the sphere of scouting, (for instance he has his Scoutmaster's permission to use his work as an aide in Sunday School classes at his church toward his service hours) would not wear the Scouting uniform, as he is doing the work as a member of the church not as a representative of the unit or BSA. The BSA is simply accepting his work outside the sphere of scouting toward his advancment requirement. If you were to argue that his work in the Sunday School class was indeed "INSIDE" the sphere of scouting then that would mean that your unit, CO and council was in some way liable for the welfare of that scout while he is at the Sunday School, and that is simply not true. He would be the responsibility of the Church who is is volunteering for and whose property he is on. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What some posters sarcasm is keeping them from seeing is that in the case of the Eagle Scout Service Project, the scout is not representing himself as an agent of the BSA, or unit. National's statement that the Eagle project is done "outside the sphere of scouting" and, the matter of accident and liaibility responsibility are all related. The reason that the scout does not wear a uniform is that as the leader of the project he represents the benefitting organization of the project and not the BSA, the council, or the Charter organization. It is the candidate that chooses, plans and leads the project, not the BSA, the unit or the CO. The procedures for the project specifically state that no other scouting member need be involved in the project. So the BSA the unit and the CO have no exposure to liability (unless it is done on the CO's property). The benefitting organization of the project would have the responsibility for the liability. Think of it like this. If you have a den meeting at your home it is a scout activity done within the normal sphere of scouting. The participants would be protected by the BSA accident insurance and if it is run by BSA adult leaders within the policies of the BSA the liability protection offered by the BSA would be in force. But if at that same house the boy who was a scout had some friends over to play and someone was injured (even if that someone was a scout in the same den) the BSA would not be responsible for costs resulting from the accident because the activity was "outside the sphere of scouting". During this non-scout activity could the scout meet advancement requirements? Yes, because although the activity is outside the sphere of scouting and the boy is not representing the scouting program at the time, the BSA still recognizes his actions toward the completion of requirements. There are specific timess when scouts represent their unit, council, BSA program, and times when they are prohibited from doing so. An Eagle project is specifically identified by the BSA as done "outside the sphere of scouting", the candiate does not represent the unit, council, or national office. He is involved in the project as a volunteer for the benefitting organization. The scout is prohibited from seeking funds or donations for other organizations (the benefitting organization of the project) using the name, images or uniforms or the BSA. So my post was not off topic as accused by Beavah, the three elements of uniform, sphere, and liability are in this case all related. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Simply say "before you get to that answer I need to ask for a brief recess." Then ask for the scout to wait outside the room and you will call for him again in just a few minutes. After the scout is out of the room you can express your concern over the appropriatness of the questioning. It helps to have a good knowledge of what should and shouldn't be asked before the board begins. A good district advancement rep will do a brief training with the board before it begins in order to minimize the likelhood that such a question would arise. If the the board agrees to withdraw the question then you can have the canditate return and simply say that you are going to move on to a different question. If the board member insists on asking the question you can remind them that since it does not relate to an advancement requirement that the scout's answer cannot be used for a decision to not advance the scout and should it be used that you would be compelled to suuport the scout in his appeal to the council.

We still elect by secret ballot don't we? Does everyone understand what secret means? I think the question is inappropriate in or out of the bor. Ask the scout what he has learned about being a good citizen and how he will put that knowledge to action as an adult. But asking who he will vote for is inappropriate, and rude. T78scoutmaster, would you be interested in what to do in the future if you feel the board asks an innappropriate question?

Nothing in the requirements, training, or resources of the BSA require the candidate to use scoouts or scout units as the workforce. If a troop did participate it would be a as scouting activity for the troop. But the candidate's role as the project leader, and the project itself, is done "outside the sphere of scouting". The project that was planned and lead by the candidate is not done as a troop project or a council project or a national BSA project. the projct belongs to the benefitting organization as the youth leader who happens to also be a scout gets to use the project to fulfill his advancement requirement for the eagle rank. But it is not a scouting project at any level of the BSA. To explain the importance of this...If there were no other members of scouting on this project and a laborer was injured are they covered by BSA accident insurance? NO. Is the Scout covered by BSA liability insurance? NO If the project is done on the property of an organization other than his own charter organization is his CO liable for property damage or personal injury? NO Why?...Because the project is done outside the sphere of scouting. The candiate does the work as a volunteer community member not as a representative of the troop, the council, or the BSA...he is "outside the sphere of scouting". His community volunteer work is recognized by the BSA toward his advancement requirement.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

What section (b) is saying that when the unit folds two things happen. First ythe committee must pay any outstanding debts owed by the unit before they can dissole. Their debts are their responsibility. They may use the unit funds or the sale or trade of unit assets to pay those debts. THEN after the debts are paid, the surplus revenues and assets revert to the the CO and the local council. The two will work out an agreement as to how the money and assets will be used. Historically here is what happens. If the CO has other youth programs the Council will not interfere with the money going to serve youth. If the CO would like to start another scout unit the BSa will support the money and assets going to the new unit. If the CO does not have another youth group and they do not intent to bahe another scout unit then the BSA will work in cooperation with the CO to find a scout unit or units that are in need of the money or assets and donate them to those units. As a commissioner I have been involved in this process a few times in different councils and it was always handlled in this manner.

"But it's all pretty funny grey zone. I expect most of us advise Eagle candidates to wear their uniform when workin' on a project" It is probably true, and also incorrect to do so. If you look at the Advancement Policies and Procedures you will learn that the project is done "outside the sphere of Scouting". Nowhere in the BSA program is it suggested or instructed for the candidate to wear the Scout uniform during the project. It is also specifically prohibited for him to wear the uniform when soliciting funds for another organization. His work is as a volunteer for a school, church, or community organization, and is recocognized by the BSA toward the rank requirement. But again it is "done outside the sphere of scouting" and as such it would not make the wearing of the uniform appropriate for the candidate.

I would be more concerned about the leaders who seem only concerned about the requirements and not about helping the scout to learn and grow. The BSA program is not found on the requirement pages of the handbook, it is found in all the OTHER pages. Goldwinger I cannot tell if you are purposely misrepresenting what the I write or simply do not grasp the purpose and uses of the Scouting Methods. In either case you would be hard pressed to find anything in the BSA program, training, of resources to support your approach to advancement. What I have said about the requirements(and you will find this in more than one BSA resource) is that you cannot add to it or subtract from them. I have also posted, and you can find this in Basic Scout Leader Training as well as other resources, that the first step in advancement is the scout "learns". So before you worry about testing him, at least fulfill your responsibility to teach him. The advancement program simply measures and rewards what the scout learns. But in the case of this specific requirement, if all you do is test the scout without ever teaching him the value and benefit of regular excercise then you might as well stay home, because the scout can count sit-ups without you. The point of adult leadership is to coach and mentor the Scout to learn and develop. The Scout may very well practice once, wait 30 days, and then take the test and show improvement. In which case the scout has succeeded in completing the requirement, while you have failed miserably in your responsibility as a leader because you have skipped over the learning process completely. You are not there to walk the scout through requirements, you are supposed too be there to see that learning takes place.

It's not much of a debate. the issue is not soley about fundraising, it is abot the BSA rights to control the use oif their image. The BSA uniform is a protected representation of the BSA program. AS I mentioned before the BSA does not allow the use of the BSA uniform name or images for the promotion of a specific political party, political cause, or candidate, without the express permisssion of the BSA. Certainly you all must realize that when you wear the uniform or the symbols of scouting that you are looked at by others as a representative of Scouting and its values, even if legally you have no such role or authority. As you know not all scouters have the good sense to use that representation in a responsible manner. So the common and logical course to protect ones image and protected property is to say 'here is when you can use it, and here is when you can't, and for anything else you must ask permission'. To suggest that you have to ask permission to wear a uniform to a scout meeting is ridululous, and it shows why it is necesarry for the BSA to be able to retain control of how their image is used.

If the scenario is a temporary injury then the scout can wait until mended and then do the requirement. In the mean time there are plenty of other skills related to advancement requirements that he could be learning practicing and applying. If it is a permanent disability that keeps him from doing the required work then the BSA makes accomodations for that condition. A temporary injury is no excuse for for a leader to change a requirement or give a scout recognition for work he did not yet do. And nothing in the BSA program suggests that you should.

I have given the resources where you can see that you your personal opinion does not match the facts. If that still doesn't work for you ask your council's scout executive. Just because you own the shirt does not allow you to use it in any way you want. If you believe you can use that Mets shirt to suggest that the you are a member of the Mets and that the the Mets support a product service or cause, you would be wrong.

You do not have the authority to use the name or images of the BSA unless authorized to do so. Being allowed access to buy it does not give you authority to use it as you please. This is not a pair of jeans. You are taliking about licensed and controled images of a private organization. Again you can learn this information at adult leader basic training and in the Insignia Guide (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Owning the uniform and having the rights to its use are not the same thing. As a member in good standing the BSA "allows" you to purchase the uniform, that does give you authoirty on how to use it. Read the BSA insignia guide and attend basic training. The BSA holds the rights to the use of the uniforms, names and images of its program at all times. Comparing it to a pair of jeans is a poor choice. It is closer to an NFL player's uniform. Being a member of the Team and of the NFL does not give them authority on the wear and use of it. How and when they can wear it is controlled by owners of the emblems not by the players.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Good luck finding anyone knowledgeable in fitness to tell you that excercising once a month would give you a noticable result in 30 days. The goal of the requirement is for the scout to experience and understand the benefit of developing a regular excercise program. The purpose of the advancement program is not earn the badge. The purpose is to measure and reward learning. I would hope most trained leaders would think it irresponsible to foster a scouting environment that accentuates the requirement and ignores the lesson. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Again FScouter is correct. The issue has nothing to do with whether or not the council is getting a share of the money. The issue is who has the rights to the use of the name and images of the Scouting Program. Neither the individual, the unit or the charter organization have the right or authority to use the name and images of the BSA to do ANYTHING unless granted to them by the legal representatives of the BSA. Such authority rests with the BSA national office and with the authority granted by them to the local council executive board and council scout executive as the legal representatives of the BSA and the local scouting corporation. Being a member of the unit does not give you authority to use any of the BSA logos, uniform, names or images unless granted the use by the council or national office. The BSA has specific situations where you can use the scouting uniforms and emblems and specific situations where you cannot and for other times you need to seek permission. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree Brent. Advancement requires that the scout learns and that the requirements be met. Daily excercise is not a part of the requirement, and teaching the scout to abuse the requirement by excercising only once a month is not showing responsible leadership. It takes a balance of qhality instruction and an understanding of the requirement, which can easily be found when one reads the handbook beyond the requirements page. CubScoutJo's concern was partially based on the concern that there were no resources handy fpor the scout to do pull-ups every day. The responsible answer is that the requirement does not demand "daily practice" it calls for regular practice. As others have pointed out there rae likey resources where the scout can get to the needed equioment 2 or three times a week and still meet the requirements and gain the benefits of a regular excercise program. The suggestion that excercising once a month is a responsible way to meet the requirements is silly in concept, and inane if endorsed by the adult leadership. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yes, you could say that. Although your fitness level would likely give away your self-deception. Excercising one day a month will not have the benefits of excercising two to three times a week which is what most health experts recommend. Then as the Scout Handbook explains, when you read past the requirements page, you should supplement that excercise program with an active lifestyle that would include things like hiking, canoeing, cycling, backbacking...or in other words being active in a scouting program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The Council's authority on determining whether or not the images and trademarks of scouting (including the uniform) can be used is not limited to product sales. It is related to ANYTHING a unit does to earn or solicite funds. This includes parking cars. As an example Scouting is not to promote a political party of candiate. So if you are invited to park cars at a political rally, and you are being given money for your efforts, then you are required to file a Unit Money Earning Application. The Council will likely tell you that you cannot use the name, or images of the BSA scouting program in any manner related to the event, even though no "product" is being sold. So the answer to the question as to whether or not you can wear the uniform was correctly answered by FScouter. It is the council's decision. If money is involved then you are required to file a Unit Money Earning Application and abide by the decision of the Council.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Please note that nothing in the requirement says that the scout must practice daily, or that he must do every excercise daily. The purpose is for the scout to understand the value of regular excercise and to get in the habit of setting aside time for personal fitness. The requirement is to "practice regularly" not daily. A Scout who excercises every other day practices regularly do they not? A Scout who practices his excercises every Wednesday and Saturday does so "regularly" do they not? Be careful not to create requirements that do not exist. The goal here is to help the scout learn to make a fitness program a regular part of his life, and to see how a fitness plan can improve his strength and health.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scoutingmama There is room enough for more than one vision within the unit program. What you want to develop are visions that are complimentary and supportive of each other. The Charter organization and committee should have a vision of what they want to accomplish using the BSa programs. The adult progrm leaders should know what that vision is and develop their own vision for what they what to accomplish iwthin the spirit of what the charter organization is aiming for. The youth leaders should have a vision as well for what they want to see the unit acconplish and it should be in harmony with the goals of the BSa and the charter organization. Who make lomg term plans? Everyone, Just realize they will likely be plans for different things. A PLC's long term plans will likely be centered on the adventures they want to have, while a committee's long term goals might be based on adult recruitment and training, membership growth and financial resources. A unit leaders long term plans might include coaching and mentoring goals, youth training, patrol funtions. Different people, different responsibilities, intertwining visions.

I would support any charter organization that wanted to require that of their volunteer leaders, but that is not the role of the coucil or of the national office. In addition, in the Army learning and skills and meeting epected performance level was your job, you got paid for it and it's what you did day in and day out. You cannot expect to be able to mandate that same kind requirement from someone else's volunteers.

Here is a truth I have witnessed in both youth and adults. Training really does make a difference in the ability of leaders, but only in the ones that use the information.