Bob White

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

There is a calmer way to approach this. We are actually talking about just 1 adult position out of 4 in a Jambo troop. They reserved 1 spot on the trip for a leader with advanced leadership training that is less than 10 years old. 1 spot per troop. In addition it only relates to the troop contingency. There are far more opportunities for a person to go on regional or national staff then there is with a troop and you get the same patches and see the same shows and go to the same activities. As for fitness, anyone who was there last year can attest to the fact that there were unit leaders who were risking their lives there because they were not anywhere near the level of health they were supposed to have for a high adventure outing as required for Jamboree. Better they stay home alive then return home not.

A "lighthearted discussion on liability"? That would be like saying you had an interesting chat with an actuary wouldn't it? Taking a post on liability and talking aboout responsibility is not a topic change. Liability is a synonym for responsibility according to Roget. And legal liability ia all about responsibility, more accurately it is about irresponsibility. If you don't act irresponsibly then you have no fear of liability. You still understand it and respect it, but if you make good decisions you do not fear it. Just as you learned as child that consequences come with poor choices, as an adult liability comes from poor choices. In Eamonn's story there was no liability so why be concerned about it being a ruling factor in your life? It certainly did not rule Eamonn, the deer, or his employer did it?

Moderators, The topic of the discussion thread is a valid one, and is relevant to the forum section it is posted in. The opening post is relative to the title. The information was accurate and the tone friendly and helpful. Would it be possible to see the thread moderated so that the topic can be continued? Perhaps no one is interested in the topic but perhaps some are and it would be far more likely that someone else would participate if the Monty Python Players could inhabit a more appropriate thread, and the attempts to change the topic could be minimized. I appreciate your help.

It belongs in the sphere of personal community service. Here is what the BSA Advancement Policies and procedures says. "The Eagle Scout service project provides the opportunity for the Eagle Scout Candidate to demonstrate his leadership skills that he has learned in Scouting. He does the project outside the sphere of Scouting." (the underline was added by me as emphasis so that it would be clear that this is the position of the BSA and not something I pulled from thin air) Just as you do scouting outside the sphere of your professional life, the Eagle scout does the projest outside the sphere of scouting. When you work you do so as a representative of your company not as a scouter even though you are one. You dress as a representative of your company because your employment is outside the sphere of scouting. An Eagle candidate does his project as a community volunteer, not in representation of his unit, the council or the BSA. Since it is done outside the sphere of scouting he would not dress as a representative of the scouting pprogram. In addition he is prohibited from seeking donations of money or materials representing himself as a Boy Scout or using the name and images of the BSA programs. He would seek the donations as a representative of the benefitting organization of the project. This also is a policy of the BSA and has been for many, many, years.

As children we are taught that actions have either rewards or consequences. They choices we make can cause pleasure or bring punishment. Most children catch onm to this pretty quickly. They know that if they make bad choices they will be punished or get hurt. Usually the punishment is short lived ann inconsequential. Time ou, stand in a corner, perhaps a spanking. Children understand it and learn from it. Some are able to transfer the reward and consequence theory into adult hood. But not all. Many adults feel that having to follow rules and be responsibly for their choices is fine for children, but that as adults they have risen beyond that. After all you cannot make an adult stand in the corner or give them time out. So long ago the community of man determined that when and adult is responsible for damage or injury due to the choice she or she made that the community will punish them for being responsible (liable) for the damage done. Lawyers did not create liability. Adults making bad choices created liability. Many of the policies of scouting exist to help adults from making bad choices that would cost the voluteer, or the charter organization or the BSA large amounts of money. Following the rules protects everyone, even the adult who without the rule could have made a very bad choice. As for the deer, had he hit Eamonn who would be liable? The State? Can you prove the State was negligent in controlling the behavior of a free roaming animal? The Deer? Good luck with that. Eamonn? he can't very well chrrge himself for something he didn't choose to do. So what role would liability have played in this chapter of his life? None. So perhaps worrying about liability being a ruling factor in his life is not the concern he thought it was.

The thread was starting a discussion on how Wood Badge Skills can be applied to a variety of leadership tasks. And that the difference between WB and basic training is that basic training is task oriented and WB is about leadership concepts. The ability to network with other scouters is not uniques to WB, it is true of any group training. It has nothing to do with "Applying Wood Badge Related Skills" ergo the title of the thread and the subject of the opening post.

An interesting post Eamonn. Since the order in which we dress has never been an issue on this forum let's look at the parts of your post that do relate to recent discussions. You wrote that you you are "required" to wear specific pieces of clothing and equipment. Who requires that of you? Is this how you dress all the time, or is this the way you dress only when representing your employer and in the course of your responsibilities represented by that uniform? Would it be true that there are things you do in your life when that uniform would not be appropriate to wear? Deos the sequence in which you dress really matter? Ask a firefighter, they might have a different answer than you or I. Is there a right way to dress? absolutely. Is there an appropriate time to wear certain clothing and an inappropriate time to wear certain clothing? Absolutely. Depending on the "uniform, there could even be a way of dressing in the right or wrong sequence. So I guess it comes done to knowing what is right or wrong for the uniform you agreed to wear, and then being true to that committment. John I read the thread that Margaret began, and for as badly as many posters treated her those same posters treat guys like fscouter and me just as badly if not worse much of the time. Margaret left and some people feel badly about their behavior. I would be curious if they would feel as bad about their behavior if she had stayed? Is it their behavior they regret or Margaret's reaction that bothers them?

That is a national policy not just a local one. Hunt the BSA advancement policies amd procedures says that the project is doen "outside the sphere of scouting". Can you think of of why you would wear the uniform when working at a job that was outside of the scouting program? The messiness of the labor you are doing has nothing to do with why national sets rules for when you can and cannot wear the uniform. The Eagle candidate does the project in the role of a community volunteer, not as a Boy Scout representing the unit, council or national office of the BSA. He should dress as a community volunteer not as a Boy Scout. The sensible approach, I would hope, would be to learn and follow the rules of the program.

No Ed, That's not what the thread was about. Eamonn got it in his last few sentences. The answer is in the course!! It might just take some time to see it /find it! But even if he goes back and looks at the 11 Leadership Skills and the material from the pre-21st Century Course, I'm sure he will find something in there which could help. - No of course it's not listed under the heading "Recruitment" but many of the skills will help. Wood Badge teaches skills that can be applied to any leadership situation rather than teaching the specific situation. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Because the Eagle rank has nothing to do with politics either! Scouting is about citizenship and you can ask him why he feels voting is or isn't important, but you are out of line when you ask him to tell you who he will be voting for. Just because a board member is rude and nosey does not mean they can ask whatever they want to of the scout. Having you vote for is none of your employer's business, and who the scout plans to vote for is none of the board's business either.

I have no idea how your post relates to the topic? Scouting Jeopardy has nothing to do with honing best practices. You do not need to go to Wood Badge to have informal conversations with other scouters. You can go to Roundtables or any number of scouting activities for that. Wood Badge is only a review if you have received that same information before. The vast majority of participants never have. Nor did they under the previus WB syllabus. None of that has anything to do with the fact Wood Badge teaches leadership skills and does not cover specific activities. Neither WB course covered recruitment, but both taught skills that let you take any leadership task, including recruitment, and address the issue using the skills learned at WB. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

This is not the only case where a BSA member cannot wear a uniform. Jblake, it has been stated several times that the fact that the uniform is not worn or that the project is outside the sphere of scouting that you can still accept any scouts work outside of scout toward his advancement if it meets the BSA criteria. I do not understand the apparent willingness of some leaders to create rules that do not exist but ignore ones that do.

A poster in another thread was looking of info on recruitment and said "One of the things I was not trained in was recruiting new youth for the troop. Woodbadge, taken prior to "21st century" did not address it. I think this is an important point to understand about the difference between the lessons of Basic Training and Wood Badge Training. Basic Training is activity related. It deals with specific situations common to all unit operations for a person in the position that the training is for. Wood Badge is conceptual training. It provides leadership concepts which can be applied to any situation in which the person functions in a leadership role. Not only did the previous Wood Badge not deal with recruitment neither does the current version. Some recruitement is covered in basic traing. What Wood Badge does is give you the tools needed address any leadership situation including recruitment. Using the posters experience; in the previous version of Wood Badge you would employ the skills "Evaluating", "Communications", "Knowing and Using your Resources", "Knowing the Needs and Characteristics of the Group", "Sharing Leadership", "Planning" and the "Styles of Leadership", to plan and employ a recruitment strategy. Do not expect Wood Badge leadership training to address specific functions of any unit or any task. It teaches leadership skills and concepts which you can then incorporate into your approach to leadership tasks.

Rememberschiff One topic at a time might be easier to understand. If you read back in the thread you will see that we are not discussing whether or not the scouts actions count toward scouting. The fact is that there are times when it is inappropriate to wear the scout uniform and endorse your activity as a scout activity. You do not wear your scout uniform in the regular performance of your job outside of scouting do you? Of course not because it is done outside the sphere of your role in scouting. Nor would you wear your uniform if you volunteered to stand on the corner and sell tootsie rolls as a member of the Kiwanis Club, because you are not there as a scouter. Does that mean you can't reflect scouting ideals? Of courcse not. But ceratinly you recognize that these actions are outside the sphere of scouting, and so you do not pretend or imply that they are sponsored or endorsed by the unit, council or national office of the BSA. The Eagle project is done by the candidate as a volunteer representative of the benefitting organization "outside the sphere of scouting". This is not a difficult concept. Is the Eagle project a troop activity? No, the advancement policy and the Eagle workbook clearly explain that it is NOT a unit project but an individual effort by the candidate and that no other scout or scout unit need be involved. If the troop is asked to particiapte by the project leader they may do so, and their invlovement is a troop activity...but NOT the candidates involvement...the candidate is there as the volunteer for the benefitting organization NOT as a representative of scouting. His project is outside the sphere of scouting but recognized for his advancement requirement just as other advancement work outside of troop activities is recognized.

If you want to know how the candidate stands o a political issue then why not just ask them what they think is an important issue to consider when choosing who to vote for? You can easily find out what he feels about issues without requiring him to reveal who he intends to vote for in a secret ballot. Would you condone a group of older scouts calling a younger scout into a roome and asking to know who he intends to vote for in a troop election? The question is rude and coercive.

Then ask "HOW" he will choose his candidate not "Who" he will vote for. That will still give you the information you need without violating his privacy. The original poster was right to feel uncomfortable by the question when it was asked at a board of review. It has no more place there than it would at a job interview.

The act of voting is related to citizenship. The choice of who one votes for is not. As far as who I am voting for...that is a personal matter protected by the laws of our nation, and to ask that is rude and shows a lack of knowledge of our country's history and electoral process. I am sorry you were not raised with better manners. I would hope that members of a board of review would show better judgement and courtesy when when dealing with the scout. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What prohibits him are the policies and procedures of scouting. What should stop him is the character and scouting knowledge of his local scout leaders. Leading the event in a Scout uniform gives the impression that the event is done under the sponsorship of his unit, council, or national program. That is a misrepresentation of the facts. The Project is done "outside the sphere of scouting" and because of that he should not be using the name and images of scouting in connection with the event or when soliciting money or equipment for another organization.

Since when does one need to be a laywer to learn the methods, policies, and procedures of unit operations? Do you really need a lawyer to understand how to lead a scout program? Why? Wouldn't simply learning about the program be more effective and far less expensive.

First you said that 5 boys were not enough, and now you say they are too many? Do not worry about counting chiefs and Indians, that is not an element of the scouuting program. The program is designed for each scout to have a position just as on a baseball team each player has a position to play and specific role to fill.

Jblake A troop with only five scouts does not need all the offices that a larger troop would use, they just need...5.

"How about asking the Scout to tie a knot?" That would be as inappropriate as asking the scout to reveal how is is going to vote in a secret ballot election. Sorry Barry, I thought you knew that you cannot retest. Instead how about asking the scout about the knots he has learned, and how he has applied them in real life situations? That will give you far more information about the scout than watching him tie a knot that even some of the board members cannot do correctly if at all. Jblake, who ever said you cannot ask about things other than knots of firebuilding? You have the Oath and Law to discuss don't you? You have his leadership experiences to discuss don't you? You have his project to review don't you? How about his future goals? It would seem you have plenty of available ground to cover before you make time for inappropriate qurestions like having him tell you what he plans to do in the privacy of a voting booth. Why not talk about those things? Before you know it the board will have actually learned scouting related things about the scout and his 30 minutes will be up and you never need to get to the inappropriate questions. While they may frustrate the adult at least it does the right thing by the Scout. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Taking into account that most troops offices have terms of 6 to 9 months (if they follow the recommended program) the scout has the oppotunity to hold anywhere from approximately 9 to 14 offices in the course of his Troop career alone. Why should it be needed for him to do more than one at a time? Why not let him commit to one job for the 6-9month duration and then let him proceed to a new challenge afterward? There is no award or recognition for the quantity of leadership roles a scout holds at one time. The Scout gains nothing by holding multiple positions in the unit anymore than an adult does. And it carries all the same problems that are caused by an adult holding multiple positions in a unit. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

IH is not a registered position in the BSA nor is he or she a member of the BSA. There is no unit position code on a membership application for IH, there are no membership listings with the BSA of the IH. IH is merely used as a label to identify the head of the chartering organization. IH is a position in the chartering organization not in the unit or BSA. A person who is the head of the CO can register in any unit position and is is not a duplicate registration since as IH they are not registered volunteers. The purpose of the Leadership Method of scouting is not make the operation of the unit easier or to see how much workload a scout can handle. Its purpose is to help youth develop leadership skills through coaching and mentoring from others. The Position of Responsibility is the tool we use to allow the scout to apply and practice those skills. The purpose and process is not improved or aided by multiple positions.(This message has been edited by Bob White)