Bob White

Wouldn't that depend on 1) what that image is 2) who gets to choose that image and 3)how that image is conveyed to and by the membership? In this case the image of the BSA programs is determined by the executive board of the BSA. It is their role and authoruty not the unit volunteers or members. The image that the BSA has chosen is on that sits very comfortably with the vast majority of the membership of our private organization. As well as with the vast majority of people outside of the organization. It's a huge population and no decision will please everyone, so the people responsible for making the decision have selected and support the current rules. It then becomes the resposibility of the membership to understand and follow them.

If you are getting paid then it is not a service project. Scouts do not except money for doing a good turn. Someone no doubt was contacted by the outside organization to do this. The member of the organization probably has no idea of the Scouting philosophy of a good turn and thought that they could get an good work force, save money, and get some good community service using the scouts to clean up. Someone at the office though should have known better and either offered this as a service project for the scouts with no monetary gain, or presented it as a fundraiser, but not both. My recommendation would be to decide within the unit what it will be and act accordingly. If it is a fundraiser than complete the Unit Money Earning Application and submit it for approval. If it is a good turn (which I hope you select) then let the the council and the organization know that Scouts do not take rewards for helping other people. And don't worry about what choices the other units might make.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It would seem these longer lists come more from lack of imformation than from actual barriers to a quality program. As examples: The problems in Chicago came more from not following the bylwas than from the quality of the bylaws thenselves. Screening of adults and barriers to abuse are the biggest part of the Youth Protection program. Sexual abuse and sex related problems with teens affect far more teens than teen suicide. BSA cannot effect teen suicide directly, but when you look at the major causes of teen suicide you fine things that the BSA programs do address such as drug and alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, and personal responsibility. Safe Swim Defense was designed and implemented because water related activities were for many years the most common cause of fatal and near fatal accidents in the BSA. The BSA does not select leaders, and not all leaders are as careful with the decisions they make in protecting other people's children as they are with their own. Safe Swim Defense and the other water related regulations are there to save childrens lives. To be willing to put scouts in an environment that we know is dangerous without being willing to take a few basic steps to provide a safe and controlled activity would be irresponsible and as proven by past experiences it can be fatal. Thousands of councils and districts put on fun and exciting cub camps each year and stay within the safety precautions of the BSA. It would be interesting to know of other organizatioons resonsibible for serving as many youth that the BSA does, who put on camps with no safety regulations and can show the low accident rate that the BSA has. Cub rowing and paddling is more dangerous on large lakes than on flat rivers? That statement suggests that Cubs on large lakes are able to go anywhere they want, or that flat water rivers have no currents. The BSA's regulations are simple and effective. "flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. It is not the size of a lake that makes it dangerous it is the lack of control on the part of the adult supervision that creates the danger. What part of Cub camping rules are prohibitive from having a good Cub program? Cubs are encouraged to camp often. District and councils are steadiling creating more opportunities for cubs to have overnight camping experiences, many councils have developed camps with facilities specifically designed to enhance the cub camping experience. Special training is provided to make more units comfortable and prepared to take Cubs camping. There are rarely minor injuries with chain saws and log splitters. Accidents usually include the loss of a body part or death from trauma or arterial bleeding. There were over 40,000 deaths and serious accidents last year from chain saws. So you can see that many adults using them have little idea how to handle them safely let alone allow a teen to use them. If you believe that 1600 teen suicides is a concern we need to address then you must admit that 40,000 fatalities and injuries with chainsaws needs our attention as responsible leaders as well. Chainsaws are an unnecesarry tool for most scouting activities and far to great a risk for you to place on someone else's child. Summer camp medication is handled differently in different camps depending on the the professional decisions of the medical staff at each camp. If you have concerns with a specific council or camp you should share them directly with that council. However it is the licensed medical personnel who are legally responsible and they will do what they feel is need to protect lives and stay within their legal responsibilities. Many restricted activites are created by 1)they are unrelated to the the program, 2)they have a known history of high accident or fatality rate in the case of an accident. 3)they have elements that are inconsistent with the values or inage of scouting. None of these activities are vital to a quality program and the program has survived for decades before they even existed. It's funny the number of adults who are upset that the BSA won't let scouts play an electronic game of laser tag, but God forbid a scout bring a tiny gameboy to an activity. Troop rules often have far less though or purose behin=d them than the national rules. Almost every rule above exists to protect the safety of other peoples children, and they are based on the number of past incidents in scouting programs or based on recommended safegurds by experts in that field of activity. Most unit rules come from an adults personal preference, and unlike the BSa rules they have nothing to do with the Methods of scouting or expert knowledge in a particular area of activity, and they are far more inhibiting in nature to a good program than the safey regulations of the BSA. Not every adult will appriciate the safety concerns of protecting other peoples children, which is why training and leader selection is an important part of the program at every level. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

ee cummings was such a fine poet unfortunately few people know it he put lower cases in all the wrong places and who knows if the moon's a balloon,coming out of a keen city in the sky--filled with pretty people? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What you failed to take notice of LisaBob is that I am not the person who changed the topic in the thread you mention nor was I the first to post a limerick. In fact seven other posters whom you failed to criticize posted limericks before me INCLUDING the originator of the thread. A thread by the way whose only point was a personal attack on me.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"I'll start a thread ; something along the lines of "Which Wood Badge Skills could be use to help with recruiting" Thanks Eamonn but wasn't that in my opening post? I am sure it was. Of course it was in the terms used from the previous version of the course because that was the one that the poster had taken. But that is what this thread was supposed to be about (note the subject line) from the get go. Perhaps your new thread on the same topic will receive more favorable moderation than this one did. BW

Schiff While it is an interesting theory it does not stand up to evaluation. If you read the Advancement Policies and Procedures it is clear that these are two distinct and separate issues. They do not even appear in the same paragraph. In fact, they are not even in adjoining paragraphs. The statement regarding the project being done outside the sphere of scouting is a stand alone paragraph. Two paragraphs later the topic of who can benefit from the project is raised. It is in this context that the BSA emphasizes that the project is done for others in the community and not to benefit scouting or BSA owned property. In between these two separate issues the manual explains how the candidate's leadership is to be shown. If the two topics were related there would be no need to emphasize the sphere of scouting, the BSA could have only explained that the project could not benefit scouting or be on BSA owned property. There is a purpose and separate meaning to the rule "He does the project outside the sphere of scouting" The two rules appear separately because they are separate rules. As with most conspiracy theories this one does not hold up to the existing facts.

"Do troops normally give a gift to their Eagles? If your troop does, what kind of gift do you give?" There are thousands and thousands of troops in the BSA each with their own ways of celebrating Eagle Scouts. There is no right or wrong thing to do as a gift. It is the choice of the unit. A good place to get ideas of what is available is online at scoutstuff.org or at the National Eagle Scout Association website @ www.nesa.org

Now do you see the dilemma OGE? I showed the BSA refernece that states the Uniform is to be used in cinnection with scouting activites as defined by the BSA. Then I show the official referencethat says when it comes to Eagle projects that the BSA says they are done "outside the sphere of scouting". Then I expect adults to be able to look at these two related rules and understand how they fit together. If the Eagle service project is done outside of scouting, then it would be incorrect for the candidate to wear the Scouting uniform. The only way you can deny this is to disprove that one or both rules exist, and seeing how they are in numerous BSA resources that would be kind of hard to do. The uniform rules of the Unit Money Earning Application do indeed relate to the Eagle project if the project includes soliciting donations or any kind. It substantiates that the candidate cannot associate the BSA with the solicitation. So you see everything I have offered is BSA documented policies, and so far the standard reply anyone has offered is nuh-uh. I had hoped that more thoughtful energy would have been available, evidently not.

Actually hiaku, like limerick, has a set structure, three lines, 5 beats, 7 beats, 5 beats. Traditional haiku includes a reference to the seasons or nature. What you posted is not haiku, nor does it meet any structure of poetry. For effective poetry you need to understand structure. Like Scouting there are some rules you need to know if you are to be successful at your attempt.

old man lost in fog rides on a cycle of gold insults fall like rain

Not al all OGE. I still think this is a valid topic considering that there are so many experienced scouters who were obviously surprised by the information. I just did not anticipate that after being shown BSA documented rules and regs that the retort by so many would be a hostile "is not", rather than a more intropsective discussion about what these rules mean. I can hold my own in a conversation or a debate when actual meaningful evidence is involved. But when you hate the messsage and the only reason offered is because you dislike the messenger, then I do not see how any real conversation will take place. Even you could not simply ask where a reference came from when you missed a point, without throwing in a personal jab. If a moderator is not moderate and willing to look at both sides then who should be expected to? Thanks but if you or others actually want to understand this better then a little less hostility an lot more curiosity will need to prevail. If the BSA was what each volunteer "thought" it was then it would be 1.2 million different things. The BSA is what the BSA says it is. If the BSA says that the Eagle service project is done outside the sphere of scouting, then that is what it is, regardless of anyone's personal habits or feelings. You guys want to attack me for that fine. The moderators want to allow it...fine. People don't what to read the documentation or think about what it means, fine. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I know that my use of of the word weigh was not done to personally insult or libel anyone.

The term I believe is called "poetic license". Under weigh is indeed an oft used nautical term of old. Yes, it is a corruption of underway but it has been used before in nautical writing as you have already verified for us. Since the limerick was of a nautical nature I took license to use this old nautitical version of the phrase. I am confident that its use was not in violation of any known poetic rule or policy, while staying within the fixed rules of limerick structure.

Thanks F Scouter but I have already shown where the BSA rules and regs regarding this are documented. Ed is not the only person who shared in this conversation, nor is he the only one who has their mind made up regardless of any BSA documentation stating otherwise. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

My definition of good scouting is a good program. But, my definition of good citizenship is following the laws of my community, in whatever community I am member of. And, my definition of good leadership is being able to get the job done and stay within the rules.

OGE part 7) relates to the immediate previous post in which Ed referenced part 6) of the Unit Money Earning application. I then posted that had he read past part 6) to part 7) he would see the portion that actually related to soliciting donations on behalf of other organizations. So I did not twist anything! I am sorry that you did not register the connection between the two posts. Clause 6) which I then posted , is from the BSA Uniform Regulations as I mentioned, and was copied from the BSA Insignia Guide. I think perhaps it would be better to use the BSA documented rules and policies to understand this topic rather than photos on a Web page.

the skipper was full of dismay his boat was not yet under weigh the mast it was lifted his crew surely gifted but from water he was way faraway

Unfortunately you stopped reading at #6 because had you read #7 you would have seen this. 7) Will the fund-raising project avoid soliciting money or gifts? The BSA Rules and Regulations state, Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events. For example: Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as Scouts or as a troop participate in the Salvation Armys Christmas Bell Ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization. The candidates role in the project is a personal activity in support of a local organization done "outside the sphere of scouting". OGE's point about the project not serving scouting is coorect BUT it is a separate issue and not related to the project being done outside the sphere of scouting. The other scouts as part of a troop activity volunteering to help on a community project can wear a uniform as long as they are not fundraising. Scouts in uniform providing labor for a community project is not at issue so long as soliciting money or gifts is not involved. The candidate being in uniform is perhaps an editorial choice to identify the candiate as part of the article..none of us know. Because the candiate is not there as a scout, he is there as a community volunteer he should not be in uniform. He uses his volunteerism leading this project toward his scouting requirement, but the BSA says that he is doing this project "outside the sphere of scouting". Clause 6 in the BSA Uniform Regulations found in the Insignia Guide states that... "The official uniforms are intended primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities as defined by the national Executive Board, and their use may be approved by the local council executive board for council events or activities under conditions consistent with the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America." The Eagle Service project is not a council event, and the National Executive Board has already told us that the candidate's project is done "outside the sphere of Scouting" so the uniform would not be consistent with the use as defined by the Executive Board. I am sorry so few were aware of, or care for, these rules. But you need to stop blaming the messenger. if the rules and regs give you pain-ing and policies drive you insane-ing ther's no need to mope there is still lots of hope perhaps all you need is more training(This message has been edited by Bob White)

With limericks they have their own rules Known widely by wisemen and fools Using rhythm and rhyme You can write them just fine You just need to have the right tools (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have seen lots of things get in the way of good scouting...but never an actual rule policy or procedure of the BSA.

I am shocked that none of you were sued for liability on behalf of the deer and its family, after all some lawyers would do anything for a Buck.

some internet scouters in post their thoughts on scouting would boast with courtesy nill and voices quite shrill poor Margaret they surely did roast Limericks require more than aabba rhyming they also require one couplet and a triplet in verse.Lines 1, 2, and 5 containing 3 beats and rhyming, and lines 3 and 4 having two beats and rhyming.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I can tell you the rules that do exist, one is that the project is done outside the sphere of scouting and the other is that you cannot wear the uniform when seeking donations for organizations outside of scouting. You are correct in repeating what I said about needing specific permission from the BSA to do so. That is given when the National office or local council are raising the funds with national's approval. As an example a council activity to collect cans to raise money for Habitat for Humanity. Such a council sponsored event would be done within the sphere of scouting, unlike an individual's volunteer effort that is recognized by the BSA for their Eagle Project requirement, which is done outside the sphere of Scouting according to the BSA advancement policies and procedures.

John I can tell you that the national's Eagle Scout service project guidleines, as well as the BSA advancment policies and procedures manual, states that the candidate can use whatever workforce he chooses and that no other scout need be involved. I can tell you that the Advancement Policies and procedures manual says that the project is done outside the sphere of scouting. I can tell you that the uniform and fundraising policies of the BSA prohibit the wearing of the uniform when raising money or seeking donations for any organization outside of scouting. These are all documented facts. I can tell you that having coached well over 60 Life Scouts to Eagle that I follow the rules as did the scouts and the units involved, and it has never adversely affected the scout or the project in any way. I can tell you that the BSA has aways accepted work done outside the unit toward advancement if it meets the criteria of the BSA. Keep in mind the BSA sets the rules in the BSA not the individual leader or unit. So the BSA can put their feet wherever they want. Sorry you don't like the rules, I did not make them. Sorry you feel the need to atack the messenger.