Bob White

"just a wee bit of respect for da poor attorneys" Where on earth did you manage to find a poor lawyer?

Don't try to change nature instead teach courtesy. Competinion between teanms is natural. But teams can compete with sportsmanship and put the sved energy and competitive drive into developing the team's skills. Competition is not a bad thing. Our country was built on the competitive nature of free enterprize, sports are popular with people all all ages and both sexes because on the competitive nature of our society. The role of the leader is to guide the energy in a positive way not try to stop it from existing. Encourage the competion by giving them skills to compete againstm but also teach sportsmanship and other positive values of scouting as you go.

Being a good scoutleader, like being a good employee is not controlled completely by policies. It should not be necesarry for a leader to need a policy to know what to do, or when to it, or even how to do it. A large part of scouting, like other aspects of an adults life, relies on the ability to take separate pieces of knowlegde and see how they fit together as circumstance or situations present themselves.That knowledge comes largely from learning through trainng. Is a policy really needed to know that training is a basic expectation for knowing and understanding a person's job.

The thoughtful selection of quality adult leadership is the most important part of developing and delivering a quality scouting program to youth.

"It is not true that liability insurance only covers you if you exercise "due diligence." If that were the case, the proper cost of liability insurance would be $zero!" I have no idea were that logic comes from but it is easily disproven. Even a driver with a perfect record has to pay for insurance whether they use it or not. The same holds true of liability insurance. You cannot do anything you want and expect to be protected by insurance. If you purposely run your car into a tree and then expect to be able to get insurance protection for the accident you will be waiting a long time for it and perhaps waiting in a jail cell. here is the quote from the BSA's liability document. Risk Management Notebook Section 16: Primary General Liability Insurance for Chartered Organizations and Participating Organizations "There is no coverage for those who commit intentional or criminal acts. Liability insurance is purchased to provide financial protection in the event of accidents or injury that is neither expected nor intended." This is the due diligence statement. Not following a BSA safety rule, or not attending the related training, or not following the prescribed procedures, can be determined to be an "Intentional Act" and the liability protection can disappear. Hence...the "NO COVERAGE". Now if anyone has a different BSA document that says otherwise perhaps we can avoid the "uh-uh you're wrong" mentality and simply discuss what this means to the volunteer.

You made a great suggestion unfortunately many posters assumed you meant that thread only.

"How safe do we all want to be?" I would hope that you would want to be as safe as you could be and stil enjoy the activity. There is a reason that race car drivers are safer today than 20 years ago even though they travel at higher speeds. Safety does not mean "not fun" it means "not dumb". "Remember personal responsibility?" Sure do. Do you remeber you are responsibible for other people's children and they might not be as keen about seeing them come back sick or injured? "or are we going to bow to the pressure of lawyers and special interests and regulate everything to the point it becomes too much of a hassle to do or it is no longer fun to go on? " Is it your contention that Scouting can't be fun if you can't take unneeded risks or play laser tag? How far should lawyers get to regulate things? That is up to your courts and the state and federal governements not the BSA. But since the BSA is the one that has to pay the bills they get to set the rules for BSAA activities. Would you rather lose your house or follow some safety rules? It's a personal choice. What would you say was the personally responsible thing to do? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is one example. It comes from a court case involving a Den Leader where a scout during a den meeting at her home was hit by a car and killed. The judge in determining that she was not liable pointed to a number of elements including that the leader was current in all the related training to her position oin scouting, that the meeting had a planned agenda that did not include the scouting hopping on someonelse's bike and riding into the street between two parked cars. She had the right amount of adult supervision and a sfe location for the activities. The judge determined that these were all reasonable steps in showing due diligence and was not found liable for his death. The BSA provide the lwyer that defended her and all her costs were covered by the the BSA because she showed due diligence in her responsibilities ans a leader in the BSA. You will find the due dilligence clause in the liability paperwork available through your council office.

The board can ask questions or discuss topics including talk ablout the skills. But as others have said the board is not allowed to retest the scout. They are however allowed to in sudre that the requirement was met by the scout. So as an example, if the requirement was: 'While on a campout build a useful camp gadget using the lashings you have learned', he does not have to build one again for the bor. But he does need to be able to say what he built and explain how it was useful. If he said that he didn't actually do it on a campout but at a troop meeting, well then he really did not meet the reuirement as it was presented to him, and the board can require that he waits until he completes the requirement correctly before they approve the advancement. (they should also meet with the scoutmaster and explain that requirements must be followed so that these kinds of errors do not happen again.) So no retesting but you can examine the scout to insure that the requirements were done and done correctly.

No words were twisted eagle90, " realize moneyis important, but it seems to me we are forgetting why we are here and who we are doing it for, and what our priorities should be." To suggest as you did that giving financial support to the progrtamn is not being done for the same reason that a unit leader volunteers their time is misleading. Not everyone has the same available time to volunteer, so thay take the proceeds from the time they spend at work and give it to help all the scouts in the council. And yet you seem to think that that means they have the wrong goal in mind. I serve on a number of boards and committees where I am not able to give the financial support that others do. Yet I have not been made to feel that my contribution of ideas and and assistance are less appreciated. The key is communications. When asked to serve just let the committee chair know what you can bring to the committee and what you cannot. As far as a council's goal to grow their committee to whatever size they want for what ever purposes they have determined they need, how is that anyone's business besides the Scout exec and the Council President. It is their committee they can decide how to staff it. It's more volunteers in the program and more things that the council can work on. If a unit wanted to increase the unit committee from 3 to 15 then that is between the CR and CC to decide and no one else. I would be far more concerned with a council that had too few people engaged at the council level not about having "too many".

The BSA can log anything they want, Eagle scout projects are just one form of service done by scouts that national has tracked. Think this through a little. Just because we are always scouts or scouters does mean that anything we do is done under the umbrella of scouting. We all have parts of our lives that are outside the sphere of scouting, in which our actions are not controlled or protected based on our BSA membership. One year at Philmont Training Center at an conference for members of council and district advancement committees, I watched as an opening quiz was given to a few dozen experienced scouters. Many of whom had several years of Troop experience. Of the 10 or so questions regarding advancement that were asked of them few got 4 correct. It would be a shame if their lack of knowledge at that point made them close their minds to learning about a topic they thought they knew. Rather than take offense when they discovered there might be more to learn than they thought, they put their personal bias aside and worked to understand the topic better. Ah, the good old days.

I am sorry if you had the mistaken impression that I was out to mend fences. My point if you want to use the fence anology is that some posters have mistaken a broken fence for being mine, when in fact it is in someone else's yard. And while I would be happy to help if asked, your broken fence is not my fault.

Because of some of the scouting activities I have been involved in I have spoken with many national level scouters both volunteer and professional. The national office is a wealth of information and those who have used them as a resource know they are very cooperative. Yes, I have spoken with Terry on a number of occassions and been involved with him on training staffs. Using personal resources is very helpful and one of the things taught in every level of scouting leadership training. The problem is that it is impossible to prove especially on this forum where posters refuse to even believe information printed in BSA documents. Or read information without the shadow of their own personal bias. So I offer to you to contact the director of advancement yourself, and enhance your knowledge of scouting. The worst thing that can happen is that you prove me wrong, and I am not worried about that. Can a scout wear a uniform when soliciting for an ouside organization in the case of an Eagle Project? What does "outside the sphere of scouting" mean in regards to the project work. These would be a good place to start your conversation. Or you can wait till later this summer I will being seeing him again.

Eamonn The conditions for the accident insurance are different from the conditions of the liability insurance. Accident insurance, as you correctly noted, is always inforce for any official scouting activity and is not dependent on any other condition. Liability does have other conditions that can effect whether or not a leaders legal fees and court fines will be paid for by the BSA or not. Liability protection is NOT a guarantee. It is a benefit available for leaders who show due diligence. You are correct it does not guarntee you will not be sued or that you will win your case. It only offers to pay your legal fees and financial judgements if you have followed the available training and regulations of the BSA as related to the activity. When would liabilty be an issue beyond the accident insurance? Most often in the case of property damage, or an injury that resulted in permanent disability, death, or dismemberment. Scoutmamma Sorry for the confusion. I was just trying to emphasize that the liability protection requires more than being a registered member. Taking training and following that training is a consideration in determining if a leader has taken resonable steps in showing due diligence.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Dan Threads started by you often come off sounding like pedantic lectures, An interesting perception but again not supported by the facts. In fact all year (and with the hundreds of threads that have been started this year), I have only started about 9 threads (excluding this one). If you look at those 9 you will see that most are about some positive activity done by scouts. Except for one other thread in which I defended myself against more unmoderated personal attacks, I started the threads as open discussion. I welcome you to go back and see for yourself. So again your judgement is based on a feeling rather than on the facts. I have never presented my opinion as the final authority, I have presented the BSA as the final authority on several occasions, and some leaders take personal offense to the dicrepancies between what the BSA resources say and what they do. That is not my fault. If my responses are incorrect then show me the evidence to support the opinion or feeling. Often times the best response some posters give is "uh-uh your wrong" and that is a weak and uninformed method of discussion. I have been mistaken a few times and have admitted the error, an attribute not widely practiced by some posters on this forum. I am not asking that posters agree with the contents of what I post, just to have the ability to debate the subject maturely and with actual documentation, rather than attack me personally for their lack of a knowledgeable response on the topic. When moderators attack posters because of personal feelings rather than the rules of the forum...well that is hardly being moderate.

Not the best, simply not guilty of what some seem to treat as a forum crime, and I should be allowed to prove my innocence.

Schiff That is twice you have suggested that this in some way ADDS a requirement and again I ask that you post what requirement you think that is? There are uniform rules whose prohibited elements include those of Eagle projects. I have posted those regulations and they are very clearly stated. Hunt, contact the national director of Boy Scout Advancement and ask him what the phrase "outside the sphere of scouting" means regarding the Eagle project. Unless he has changed his mind I have provided you accurate information. So unnless you have some BSA rule or policy that appproves an idividual to use the uniform and name of scouting for work done "outside the sphere of scouting" and for soliciting for an outside organization or for a personal event, then all your argument consists of is "uh-uh you're wrong", And that is not enough to overrule the published policies and regulations of the BSA.

Not a pity post at all. As I said I think criticizing people for having the last word is ridiculous and should not be an issue and certainly should not be a criticism from a moderator. And if posters and moderators insist on criticizing posters who have the last word then they should at least be attacking the right people. Packsaddle, the difference between your situation and mine is that you are one of the posters who at the time had the most "last word" posts and I was not. And I disagree that I need thicker skin, perhaps others need a closer association with facts.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Wearing the uniform is not what determines whether an activity can be used for advancemen, nor is it required for a Scout activity. Conversely, wearing the uniform is inappropriate for a non-scouting activity. Whether a person wears the uniform is determined by the uniform regulations of the BSA, and not by personal opinion or sketches in a magazine. The important thing to remember is that the uniform along with the names, phrases, and images of scouting are owned by the BSA and not by the unit or individual member, and so the authority to determine their use is held by the excutive board of the BSA not by then unit volunteer, or individual scout or scouter. You can learn most of these rules by attending job specific basic training, and through the contents of the BSA Insignia Guide and the Unit Money Earning Application. Wearing the uniform somewhere while on the way to a scout meeting is not an issue. Wearing it to a school when representing yourself as a scout leader to recruit members is not a problem If you have permission from the unit. Wearing clothing that identifies you as a scout when doing a service project as part of a unit or council activity is not required in order to do the project or to recieve credit toward advancement. And some activities that a scout could do for service may not be an activity where the BSA approves using the images of the BSA. An example would be if the scout wanted to pass out flyers for a candidate. The scoutmaster could accept those hours as a service project, however the BSA says that he cannot use the name or images of the BSA whle he does that activity. So he could do the project but not as a scout and still recieve the advancement credit.

That is not what it means Hunt. It means that the work is done by the scout as an individual not as a representative of the BSA and so the BSA has no authority of responsibility during the work. He is not there as a representative of his charter organization, council, or national BSA office. His work is outside the sphere of scouting. Just as your employement is outside the sphere of scouting. The rules of scouting do not apply at your place of employment as you are not there as a representative of the BSA, nor would it be appropriate for you to go to work each day dressed in the BSA uniform. And if while at work if you are injured you would not be protected in any way by the BSA because your work there is outside the sphere of scouting. That does not mean that the skills and values you learn and use as a scouter cannot be applied at work. But you use them without work being a scouting activity. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It didn't take that much time to do, but yes learning the facts takes a little longer than making things up or simply creating an opinion without having be bothered by facts. The fact is that while some posters choose to make up things regarding my posts, the actual facts do not support their statements. Proving that was worth a few minutes of learning. Two of the top five have already posted replies here. Yet I do not recall ever seeing them criticized for actually doing what I was improperly accused of. I find that interesting.

Not all backpacking gear has to be expensive. A large part of learning backpacking is about cutting back on what you take, and making what you take smaller and lighter, much of which can be done with the equipment they currently have. In many units scouts are responsible for personal equipment and the unit takes resoponnsibility for group equipment. In backpacking group equipment often comes down to tents and stoves, and everything else is personal gear. Depending on the type of tentage used by the troop it may work just fine for now. The scouts may need to relearn how to distribute the weight to so that one person doesn't carry the entire tent, and learn to leave other things behind do that the existing tents can be carried comfortably. Reliable backpack stoves and fuel bottle are not that expensive and if cared for properly will last the unit well past the membership of these scouts for use by others. Why not have the scouts put a budget together after they get some more training, and let the PLC and committee determine who should be responsible for what equipment and how the money should be obtained?

What I have done is quoted the related passages from three BSA documents that contain polices and rules approved by the national executive board. You will need to come up with something more substantial than an artists sketch in a magazine, or your personal opinion, in order to counter the rules of the BSA. Remember also that the use of the uniform is not the most important part to understand here it is simply a residual condition that is supported by the rules. The important thing is to understand what "outside the sphere of scouting" means and how it affects the Eagle project. And it has nothing to do with the rule about doing the project off of BSA owned property. What is the sphere of scouting?

No organization inluding the BSA records its rules or policies in sketches. to use an artists sketch to prove a BSA policy is absurd. They are not my rules. These are are all rules that have been approved by the BSA executive committee and recorded in official BSA documnets and available for every adult leader to learn. The BSA tells you that this is an individual activity and not a scout activity. The individual chooses the project, the individual creates the plan, benefitting organization approves the work, it is done o the benefitting organization behalf, on the benefitting organizations property, The BSA only determines if the work can be used for the advancement requirement. The candidate can do the work for the benefitting organization whether the BSA accepts it for advancement or not. The BSA tells you that it is done outside the sphere of Scouting. Your refusal to read or accept the BSA documents and just look at the pictures does not alter the written policies. Scouts and Scouters should wear their uniforms to any appropriate activity, but should understand that what is appropriate is determined by the BSA and not by personal opinion or skethes in a magazine.

I agree completely. Unfortunately some other posters, including a moderator have implied that the title is mine and that there is indeed something wrong with having the last word. You would think that at least one of the 5 posters with the most last word posts would be catching flack before me wouldn't you? But has anyone criticized you for getting in the last word? (This message has been edited by Bob White)