Bob White

A young man is leading a project to build a playground area at a local shelter for battered women and their children. The work crew consists of volunteer workers from the shelter and members of the community as well as a few local representatives from the local carpenters union. Which specific BSA Youth Protection rules must be followed and to whom do they apply, and who is the adult responsible for seeing they are followed?

That is not quite accurate. The Liability protection as it has been explained in our council is from national,. The Accident insurance in most councils is now purchased by the council from an approved carrier except for a few councils where it is still purchased by the unit through a carrier selected by the council by the unit. Because not all insurance companies are licensed in every State the coverage is the same in every council but the carrier may differ. BSA sets the criteria for the policies. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

So your troop was wrong about the t-shirts but there is no chance that a professional could be wrong about this, and you are unwilling to apply common sense to a discussion on the topic? Even though applying some common sense exposed the troops error. Doesn't that seem a little contradictary? If you are so sure I'm wrong then walk through this situation and prove it.

So what would it take for you to believe someone? Just years the number of years in the program? So does tha mean that someone with more years but a different answer must be right? Take few posts and put your pre-conceptions behind you and just talk about this situation and you can reason through it logically rather than taking a knee jerk reaction because it may turn out differently than you believed. I'll take my chances as to where this might lead why won't you?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

mkp750, When you say the policy is "unclear", what part of the policy did you mean? from the BSA advancement Policy and Procedures manual under the heading "Qualifications of Counselors"..."An approved merit badge counslor may counsel any youth member including his or her own son, ward, or relative." If it is the part about who approves them, the same BSA policy manual in the same section says this... All merit badge counselors must be approved by the council advancement committee. Is it the part about which or how many merit badges the parent is allowed to counsel? Let's look at what the BSA says about that. From the same section of the same BSA advancement manual... "There is no restriction on the number of merit badges a youth may earn from one counselor." I am puzzled by what part of the BSA's policy you find "unclear"?

Don't let a simple logical discussion scare you away. Posters have tried, personal attacks, personal opinion, even 'uh-uh your'e wrong'. How about trying a conversation? What could it hurt for you to put personal opinion aside and just work through it logically and see where it leads us? Here is the situation again. A young man is leading a project to build a playground area at a local shelter for battered women and their children. The work crew consists of volunteer workers from the shelter and members of the community as well as a few local representatives from the local carpenters union. Which specific BSA Youth Protection rules must be followed and to whom do they apply, and who is the adult responsible for seeing they are followed?

You were missinformed and I think if you walk with me through these questions you will see why.

Sigh...Okay Schiff riddle me this. A young man is leading a project to build a playground area at a local shelter for battered women and their children. The work crew consists of volunteer workers from the shelter and members of the community as well as a few local representatives from the local carpenters union. Which specific BSA Youth Protection rules must be followed and to whom do they apply, and who is the adult responsible for seeing they are followed?

Yes you can but should you? Sure, why not? One scout method is Adult Association and as a parent are you not an adult? Is using scouting to strengthen the relationship between a boy and his parent in some way a bad thing? Is sharing your knowledge and passion for a skill something that is harmful to your son? The BSA in no way discourages the parent from being a counselor to their son. It seems so silly that the same people who have no problem being a scoutmaster to their own son would discourage or blockade you from being a merit badge counselor to your son. All the BSA requires is that you be approved and registered with the council for the topics you counsel. Enjoy! bw(This message has been edited by Bob White)

When the incident occured was it reported immediately to the council scout executive? What was done by the council at that time?

No, I am explaining how the council's use of the permit in this case is inconsistent with the specific use and purpose as stated on the form which comes from the national office. In addition I was showing the error in your observation that "Some reasons include documenting that youth protection guidelines are being followed" as the local tour permit has no relationship to the use of YP policies for youth at an activity. YP policies are adult leader policies and are not attached to the use of a local tour permit. Adult scouters must follow the YP policies when working with scouts whether they needed to file a tour permit or not. But no one is required to follow BSA policies at an activity done outside of the BSA. And the BSA says that the candidate does the project outside the sphere of scouting. Just as if a scout leader volunteered as a Rotary member to work at pancake breakfast he is not required to follow BSA policies since his work is done "outside the sphere of scouting".

Thank you for the clarification Karen. Yes, there is a Cub Leader Job Specific Course for Cubmaster and a separate Job Specific Course for Committee Chair. Call your local District Training Chair for details and dates. BW

And your district executive has how many years experience in scouting? And she has been to what...MAYBE three training courses? NONE of which have anything to do with the Boy Scout Advancement program! Their training is not in program policies and procedures but in money, manpower, and membership management. Schiff The YP rules have NO relationship to an Eagle project since the activity is not the responsibility of a scout unit, council or BSA. Also there is no requirement for any other member of scouting to be present, and YP only applies to BSA adult members in relationship to youth participants at a scouting event. Should a scout unit be involved as volunteers at the project then the YP rules apply ONLY to the adult members of that unit. The candidate is not there as a troop member but as the volunteer project leader for the benefitting organization. To further prove that YP is not tied to the tour permit. If you go to an OA event as an adult member do you need a tour permit? No, because you are not going as a troop activity but as an individual. Are you bound by the Youth Protection policies of the BSa while at the OA activity? YES So having to follow YP is not related to the tour permit. It is realated to your function as a scouytt leader at a unit, council, regional, or national event. If you go to Jamboree on staff do you need to have a tour permit? NO Because you are not there as a troop activity, you are there as an individual adult leader. Are you bound by the YP rules? Yes because you are at a Scout activity. FINALLY, If you volunteer to help at a Rotary Club Pancake Breakfast, do you need a tour permit? NO because the event is ...ready....outside the sphere of scouting. Are you bound by the BSA Youth Protection Policies? NO! Why? Because you are not there as a scout leader but as an individual doing a service project for another organization...outside the sphere of scouting. Can your volunteer work for the Rotary be considered toward service to the community when being considered for a BSA recognition. YES! Even though the activity is outside of scouting the BSA recogognizes the service as something you did, and it is considered toward your recognition, JUST LIKE the Eagle service project for a youth.

I would not encourage anyone to test your "opinion".

"Are there any rules on how young two boys can be to be in a tent on a campout? That's the missing piece, from my side." I am not sure what you are asking. IS it does the BSa have a minimum age in which a youth can stay in aq tent without an adult? No Does the BSA say that yo can only put two children in a tent? No. In answer to another post form, Can Granpa stay in a tent with the cub? No, unless the court has declared him a guradian.

Depends on which position you had and what position you are going to. If for instance you were going from a CC (committee chair) to a CM (Cubmaster), then yes you should definitely take the job specific training. Going from a CC to an MC (committee member) then it would not be required but going through the course again with a different vantage point wold likely be very useful.

Wow that was some "edit". Lets try again. I did not say that the tour permit was a local council document, I said that the Eagle packet was a locally produced document. I said that for the simple reason that Eagle90 said it was a locally produced packet. National does not require a tour permit for a youth that is going to an individual event in or out of scouting. For instance... when an individual scout or scouter goes to an OA event he or she is not required to have a tour permit of any kind. If a Scout goes to a pack meeting as a den chief or for any reason he does not need a tour permit. If a scout goes to help staff a day camp he does not need a tour permit. If a scout meets his patrol for a swim at a local pool he does not need a tour permit. There is no reason for a scout to need a tour permit to go lead an Eagle project. IF the troop goes to help then they need a tour permit. So I did not misinterpret anyone's post. And I would appreciate knowing why that assertion I did was not struck but my explanation was. Thank you BW

I believe it was Stephen Leacock who wrote "he flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions". That seems a fair description of your chosen role in the pack. It would appear that no one left you holding the bag, you swept up every bag in sight and chose to carry all of them. The best thing for your sanity, and for the good of the pack, is for you to give all the bags back to the cubmaster and committee chair and say that you would be happy to do one job, and one only. The rest will have to be shared with others. If they offer you the committee chair's job I would suggest you politely decline saying that having a spousal team in two key leadership roles is not healthy for the pack and could likely cause major problems sooner or later. Once you settle on one job attend the training for it as soon as possible. I am glad you want to set a good example for the boys, that is an important and valued trait in an adult leader. You might want to check out what the Cub Scout program says about mixing uniform pieces with civilian clothing. You will find that passage in the Cub Scout Leader Book. Good luck with your new position, I think will will enjoy the lighter workload. BW

The method varies from District to District. In general if you do the job you have well then you will be asked to help with something else. Hopefully in your distrct the people who need help are always on the lookout for talent to add to their committee. If they aren't then I don't think I would volunteer to be lead by them. Not everyone knows how to ask for help, and not every gets asked to help. I tend to look for people who show a combination of skills and interest.

Three-way Tie Cornerstone Training 1975 met some incredible Scouters and got stoked about being a Scouting volunteer 1st Wood Badge Course 1980 Incredible staff, learned a ton. 1st Train the Tainer Course 1981 Great people, met folks I still am pals with today.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

An excellent understanding and explanation or uniforming Pack212Scouter

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

You do not need a lawyer to be a good scout leader or to take scouts on activities, if you feel you do then you have probably chose a poor way to volunteer your time. This is not a question of law, this is a question on training and its benefits. If you take the available training and follow the information readily available through the BSA then the matter of law never comes into play. Its a matter of common sense if anything. Understand the program and the rules that relate to your job, and to the activity you are leading, and injuries will minor and be few and far between. If you do your job correctly and by some great misfotune a scout should have a fatal injury you will be protected by the BSA. I know of only one first hand incident with a unit in our didtrict where a scout fell to his death on a hike. The leaders did nothng wrong and the BSA defended the leader at trial, he was found not to be liable for the death and the BSA paid all his legal expenses. If this is topic that worries you then pay good attention at training and follow the program rules.

Here are just a few things tat come to mind for the Tenderfoot to First Class crowd. In order to make the tents last longer and make them more comfotable we always made pack racks and kept our gear outside. Sometime during the weekend stage a surprise First Aid scenario using moulage make-up. Have a game with prizes, Place numbered stakes zround camp near trees and plants, let each scout create a list identifying them to win a prize. (we would give the prize to the first one to have all the IDs correct). Have a knot bar. A horizontal bar with lengths of rope on it. Select any number of knots and give a recognitiion of some kind to whomever ties them the fastest. Let scouts compete as often as they want in the course of the weekend. Have new scouts follow a map on a 5 mile hike along the waty have skill areas wher they are tested on skills they have been learning at the troop meetings. Have the scouts creat a physical fitness course and run individual and patrol competions. Have morning excercises Go on a night-time nature hike and do animal identification. Have a personal gear shakedown and work on packing for an outing. Do patrol cooking Camp by patrols Have scouts pitch there own tent Sleep out under the stars (weather permitting) Have daily flag raisings and retirements. Make fire starters Do a service project for the campground Have a ranger or botanist lead a nature hike. Go bird watching Do a cooking demo Go geo-caching (This message has been edited by Bob White)

As you said that is from a local council document, created by local volunteers who may not have read the National rules too carefully. There are over 300 councils, each with lots of volunteers not all of whom do things correctly, as has been pointed out by a variety of posters on this very forum. So keep in mind the only the national executive board controls the use of the uniform and advancement policies. Not units, not individual volunteers and not councils. As far as a tour permit since the project is not a troop activity and since the candidate is doing the work outside the sphere odf scouting, and ....since he is not required to have any other scout work on the project then a tour permit would not be needed according to the conditions set forth on the permit. Now if the troop were going to the project as a troop service project then they would need a local tour permit.