Bob White

It would mean that no one else could sell a patch that looked liked his. So what?

This is what the BSA said the training figures were. If they are wrong or why they are wrong is pure conjecture. I am sure that some units were probably not accurate and showed fewer trained leaders, just as some were probably not accurate showing more trained leaders. On a national scale they probably took that into consideration. Most scouters would agree that the number of untrained leaders are too high unless everyone is trained. In the presentation I heard the point was not "bad volunteers" it was: the need for councils to initiate more training opportunities, for Charter organizations to select and retain leaders willing to attend and follow the BSA training, and for professionals to do a better job of starting new units by properly training and develping new leaders. None of those points are bad points regardless of how many leaders are trained. (This message has been edited by BoB White)

If you read Troy's second post you would see that he removed the BSA protected images. As for "what right" he has. He has the same right to produce that knot as the guys who make the Untrainable patches or any other patch. Absolutely untrue. Some emblem distributors are licensed by the BSA, and follow strict rules as to what can be produced and what cannot. Troy is not one of those distributors. he has the same "rights" to make emblems for the uniform as any other unlicensed vendor...none! Had he been licensed his website would have to have been reviewed and its contents on the patch approved by the BSA liscensing division. Then he would have displayed his approved supplier logo on the page. There was nothing in my post that was contrary to the Scout Law. Troy is not a kid. He earned his Eagle over 23 years ago. He is someone who feels according to his own words, to be the elite among us. And he wants an award for his uniform to prove it. So far the BSA has disagreed, and that decision is not good enough for Troy, so he has decided to make his own award, and is encouraging others to wear it to so that he can have elite company. I feel no shame in supporting the same rules be applied across the board. Troy, and other scouters who wear improper recognitions, what to break rules for their own grandification. I think there is a big difference between the two behaviors.(This message has been edited by BoB White)

No uniform police at my house. The wearer of the uniform is hopefully selected based on character and ability. They should be capable of knowing right from wrong and following rules on their own. (as should an Eagle Scout). Before you start criticizing people who support the correct use of the uniform as "elitists", lets look at a quote from you Troy from your website, as you explain why you see a need for this "knot". "This group of scouts is definitely the elite of all scouts and could stand to be recognized for their achievements." You are referring to yourself are you not Troy as one of these elite who deserve this recognition? And because the BSA has not to date agreed with you on this point have taken it upon yourself to create your own award to fete your own accomplishment. Yet you think people who endorse the correct use of the BSA uniform as "over zealous". Have I pretty much gotten that right? Yet, you do not see your own attempts to reward yourself as just a tad ego-maniacal? As far as diplomacy, if you see someone stealing from your neighbor and you holler at him to stop... are you concerned about sounding polite and diplomatic, or do you want him to understand that what he is doing is wrong and he needs to stop. For diplomacy he should have sought permission before he violated the law.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I heard it from the BSA Director of the Relationships division back in February of this year during a presentation he made at an Area Cluster Meeting. OGE also quoted the number from his councils news letter from March of 07. http://www.minsitrails.com/Documents/Newsletter/Mar2007/final.pdf

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

All scouting activities are either unit activities, district/council activities, or region/national activities. Which category would the Eagle project be? You cannot just proclaim it a scout activity. The activity has to be done by scouting at some program level. So at which level of scouting does an activity being done by an individual happen? You cannot just say 'uh-uh you are wrong', and be taken seriously in any discussion. You need to show evidence to support your position. If you recall your training then you know that there are no other levels of scouting. And if you take a moment to honestly consider things you will have to realize that the project does not fall into any of these program levels. It is outside the sphere of scouting. No level of scouting has control over the project, they can only determine if the work will be accepted for advancement, the project is done by and for the benefitting organization which is outside the sphere of scouting. If the project were a scouting activity then some level in scouting would have the authority to stop the project from taking place. What level of scouting would that be? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

BadenP After all those years as a professional (nearly 5 wasn't it?) the most you can offer on the topic is a personal attack? I would have thought that if I was wrong that you couuld have offered some sort of actualy BSA information to prove it. And yet all you could do is hurl another personal attack. That pretty much proves that what I am sharing is accurate. Even with your years of professional experience you cannot show the project to be a scouting activity at the unit, council/district, or regional/national level. It is a project outside of scouting that belongs to the benefitting organization. The coucil only approves whether the work can be applied toward an advancement requirement for the individual youth leading the project for the outside organization. The project itself is outside the sphere of scouting.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Not all patches are made to be worn on the official uniform shirt, regardless of their shape. Even though the Totin' chip patch is similar in shape to the OA lodge flap it is not meant to be worn in the same place or on the same apparel. All temporary patches are worn on the right pocket front 9not the pocket flap) they may also be worn on the back of the merit badge sash, or on a non-offical item such as a patch blanket, non-official jacket, backpack, or brag vest.

The national office of the BSA recently released the numbers and they calculate that only 29% of direct contact adult leaders have completed basic training in their job in scouting. Kinda scary huh?

Thank you Troutmaster I was starting to worry that there was no one left who knew how to build a fire lay without liquid fuel or explosives. Here is my favorite. It's an oldy but a goody. At the bsae of your fire lay under lots of tinder use a car and garage device. The garage is made of (3) 2x4 about 8" in length. They make two sides and the roof of the garage. The inside of the roof you line with the strike strips from the packaging of a wood-stick match boxes. The car is made of a 4" length of 2X4 that you have drilled several vertical holes in to hold a lot of wood matches. Set the match height so that the heads just touch the roof of the garage when you park the car in it. In the end of the car place an eye screw and tie the end of some wire to it. Make the wire long enough to allow you to stand several feet away from the fire. When it is time for the fire to ignite, simply pull on the wire for just a few inches. Unseen by the audience the car will be pulled fronm the garage into the tinder. The match heads will rub against the strike strips and ignite. The fire will start as if by magic. The evidence of the car and garage burn up in the fire.

There is no difference between the two. The district approves the work toward the advancement but has no authority over the project itself. If the project were a district activity then the district could cancel it. But they cannot cancel a project that is not theirs, the project belongs to the benefitting organization. As proof of that, the candidate can do the project whether the district approves it or not, so it cannot possibly be a District activity. All the district/council does is determine whether or not the work can be used toward the BSA advancement requirement. (as an aside keep in mind that a district activity is a council activity. The district is nothing more than a geographic service area of the council. A sub committee as it were. The district has no legal force. The council is the corporation not the district. The district has no money, all funds are the council's.) This is not splitting hairs. There is a huge difference between approving work for advancement, and making something a district/council activity. And while you may not understand the difference I'll bet there are a few people starting to see that they might be wrong about this being a Scouting activity and are actually beginning to understand that the work is done outside the sphere of scouting, meaning that it is not a unit, district/council, or region/national activity. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

One thing that will help you is to keep some resources on hand. I kept a library of nature identification books in a small plastic tub on a table in camp where the scouts could look uyp info as needed. I found the Peterson Field Guide Series to be outstanding. Not only does it teach you tree identification by leaf but also by bark and bud configurations. As a rule hard woods burn long and slow and leave firm coals, soft woods burn fast and leave mostly ash. Slow growing tree varieties will render harder wood than faster growing trees. In most cases (but not in every case) deciduous trees are often hard woods and most coniferous tress are soft woods. I hope this helps. BW

Vicki The council/district advancement committee does not approve the activity, they approve whether the activity can be used toward the advancement requirement. The council has no authority to tell the scout he cannot do the project since it is not their project, it belongs to the benefitting organization. The youth can do any service project he wants at any time. The council can only determine if it can be used for advancement. Just as a boy can do any service he wants as a Star scout, but for it to count toward advancement the Scoutmaster must approve the work. But the Scoutmaster cannot tell the scout he cannot do the service. Nor does his acceptance of the work toward the advancement make it a troop activity. Do not confuse the advancement committee's approval of the work toward a requirement with the council endorsing the activity as a council activity. Those are two entirely different things. The council is responsible for liability on a council activity, they are not responsible for liability on a service project done by an individual for an outside organization just because there is a person leading it who also happens to be a scout, no matter what rank he might be. Enjoy your pie, think about the difference between the council approving the work for advancement as opposed to approving the activity as a council activity. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

BadenP writes "only if there are no other mb counselors available should a parent counsel their own son." That statement is not supported in ANY BSA policy or procedure or found in ANY BSA document or training. It is not within your authority or responsibility to alter the advancement policies based on your person peccadillos. If you believe any councelor is not doing theoir job correctly then your responsibility is limiuted to reporting them to the council advancement committee to make a determination. It is not your job to approve or deny who can counsel a merit badge, and the BSa says that any approved counselor can councel ANY scout. And you cannot alter that with your personal opinion regardless of what you feel your personal experiences have been. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Troy What did your experience in Scouting earning the merit badges teach you about following rules or even more importantly obeying the law? By whose authority or permission do you make a badge for a uniform you have no legal control of? By what authority do reproduce trademarked properties of the BSA on yor website. There are legal and proper ways to request that knots be approved by the BSA and there are legal ways to get permission to reproduce the BSA's protected properties and images. I think people would be far less impressed with the number of merit badge you left scouting with and more impressed with the values that you took with you. I hope that after some reflection on the copyright laws and and on Scout Law you will remove your web site and reconsider your approach on how you will try to get the resognition adopted by the BSA. BW

Thanks Ed, You have taken us to the next step in the logical progression of the discussion, although I doubt that was your intention. Patrol Activities are "unit" activities, Eagle Recognitiopn Dinners are "council" activities", OA activities are "council, regional, or national" activities. All Scout activities can be shown to belong to be the responsibility of the unit, the council/district, or Regional/National. You have already agreed with the BSA that the project that is planned and led by boy using it to fullfill his Eagle service Requirement is not a unit activity, nor can you say it is regional or national. Your council will tell you correctly that it is not a council activity. So if all scouting activities are Unit, council/district, or region/National, and the project being lead by the young man and being applied to his Eagle service requirement is none of those, then what kind of scout activity is it? There is only one other thing you might call it, and if you do you will prove the BSA'a point that the project is outside the sphere of scouting. So if the project is not an activity of the unit, council, or national, then what kind of scout activity is it?

What kind of a scouting activity? There are only a few kinds. We've ruled out unit. That leaves a national activity, but that cannot be right since National learns about it after it has been done. Regional? That can't be because region is never informed about projects. Council? Are you suggesting that the service project is a Council Activity? Those are the only types of Scouting activities that exist. So if indeed the Eagle Project is a scouting activity then which type of scouting activity is it? (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If we agree that the Eagle project is not a unit activity, then is it a council activity?

"Now I remember Sky King... still backgrounds and movie lips.' That was 'The Adventures of Clutch Cargo' (and his pals Spinner and Paddlefoot).

Oh for Pete's sake John there are just as many bad scoutmasters out there as there are bad MB counselors. The difference is the counselors are a lot easier to weed out. If you think a counselor isn't doing their job communicate your reasons with the Advancement committee. It is their job to approve counselors not yours.

"They, like others here, require enough information in the ELSP Workbook that if the Scout were abducted by aliens, another scout or adult for that matter," No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add such a requirement. That is not a requirement of the BSA's and it cannot be added by anyone. You can only use the requirements that the BSA has placed in the offical project work book. As a side point it is a silly concept to include. Firstly, because if the scout is not there it doesn't count no matter if it is written to that great a detail or not. Secondly, as long as the plan meets the BSA requirements and can be carried out by the scout then it is as detailed as it needs to be. To assume that a 13 year old and an 18 year olds planning ability will be at the same level is absurd. Two think that any two scouts abilities will be identical is absurd and not required by the BSA. Lastly, to think that ANY scout can pick up anyone elses plan and carry it out no matter how well written would depend as much if not more on the abilities of the mystery scout or scouter as on the planning ability of the candidate. Why can adults not follow the rules? Stick to the BSA requirements.

No project is diminished by the candidate not being in uniform during the project. No project is diminished by understanding that it is done outside of scouting and so the BSA accident and liability coverage is not in force for anyone working on the project that is not there as part of a scout unit at an official unit activity. And the BSA makes it very clear that the project itself is not a unit activity. Knowing these things does dot diminish the program or the work of the scout in any way. Nor does it preclude anyone from showing a picture of the scout in unifdporm and saying that he did a projecct on behalf of ABC organization for his Eagle Scout Project. You are sying things that no one has claimed or suggested. It is a very easy thing to show that the project is not a scouting activity, even though the work is recognized by the BSA for advancement. activities done outside of scouting activities are used all the time for scout advacnement as well as for adult recognition. This is not something unique to the Eagle Project. This fact is in now stretch of the imagination an attack on scouts or scouting. The BSA explains that this is done "outside the sphere of scouting" and they are not talking about not being done on BSA property of for the BSa. They mean it is not a unit,council, or national activity. It is an activity held by an outside organization that is lead by a youth and not by the BSA. And there are characteristics of a non-BSA activity that you should be aware of. Just saying that the project is a BSA activity is not enough. It would be easy to see if anyone would put aside their anger and their personal opinion and just walk through a simple excercise. I have given you the policies and the BSA sources of those policies, why not take a few posts and see how they apply? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No one in previous posts on this topic connected training to ACCIDENT insurance, only to liability protection. Accident insurance is always in force on scout activities for BSA members and potential members being actively recruited. BW

It would seem that a number of district and council have gone a bit off the track when it comes to Eagle Project approvals. This is a person job that takes all of 10-15 minutes when done correctly. The council/district advancement committee is charged with haveing A member of the committee review the oofficial Service project Workbook to look for some specific information. 1) Is the scout eligible to work on the eagle project? 2) Did the scout select and develop a plan 3) Will the scout be giving leadership one or more other persons in the project? 4) Is the project for an approved benefitting party? 5) Is the project done on approved property? 6) Does the scout have the written approval of the required parties? That's it! That is the role of the council/district advancement committee prior to the beginning of the project. Nowhere is the committee given the job of changing or questioning the scouts plan. Nowhere is the scout required to appear before any member of the council/district in order to get the application for the project approved. Nor does the planning workbook ask for a start date. It asks in past tense for the "dated the project was started". The youth cannot start until after the application is approved and who knows how long that will take as you can see from the preceeding posts. Anything beyond answering the 6 questions is unnecesarry interference by the advancement committee.