Bob White

Knot Head Once the Instutional Head and Charter Organization Represenative have approved you as the Committee Chair there are enough official BSA resources to help you that you will not need to use unofficial sites on the internet. When it comes to unit administration most of these sites are riddled with incorrect information formed from personal opinions and years of expeirence doing the same things wrong over and over again. Since you mentioned that this was a Troop position, taking the Pack Committee Specific Training would not be the appropriate course for you, neither would BALOO. You will need to take Troop Committee Challenge, which is available on-line throgh the BSA. I would also recommend you arrange with your local district or council to have a live presentation done with your entire committee so that everyone is on the same page. Other resources you will find useful are: The Troop Committee Guide (this is the handbook for Boy Scout Troop committees) The Guide to Safe Scouting (you can print this off-line) The Advancement Committee Poicies and Procedures manual The Uniform Insignia Guide Unit Money Earning Application, Local and National Tour Permits (available on line from the www.Scouting.org site) And if you don't already have one, a recordkeeping software is a very good thing to have, Troopmaster is probably the most commonly used one. But I would certainly start with taking Troop Committee Challenge training. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Again I am amazed that personal attacks are edited from some posts but not all depending on who the target is. That aside. I am one of the few who posted their bios only because others chose not to when asked. Several requests have been made by others to get posters to fill in their bios as it helps to understand where people are coming from in the questions and in their answers. If it makes you feel any better I did not list everything. Nor unlike your website did I congratulate myself for what I had done. I never claimed to be the eilte of scouting as you have said of yourself on your web site, nor have I ever attempted to create an award to recognize my own accomplishmenets. No private message from you was ever recieved. Since the one I sent another poster was not recieved either I would guess that there is a problem with the PM feature of this forum. Not my fault. As for the Copyright laws and what the 70+ images and phrases are that the BSA hase protected, I would suggest you contact the BSA copyright enforcement office in the BSA National Supply Division in Charlotte N.C. They will send you everything you need to know. All I did was point out that what you were doing was contrary to the law I did not make you change anything, I suggested you reflect on what yo were doing, and it seems that you did that to a degree. Did you not want to know you were violating the BSA copyrights?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

HillBilly You don't seem to have any difficulty understanding the content of the G2SS other than you do not understand what is a rule and what isn't. The chlorine treatment you quote is not a BSA policy, it is a safety recommendation. At the very beginning pof the G2SS it tells you that the BSA policies are typed in BOLD font. The chlorine treatment is just one of a few methods of water treatment that is suggested. As you correctly pointed out it will not poison you, it probable won't taste good, but is will not hurt you. And for something you say is confusing you seem to understamd it quite well. GoldWinger Your comparison to Nazi Germany is repugnant.

No apology needed Mark. You were never required to reply or even read my posts if you did not want to. As far as the quote in the BSA training document is is an interestiong one that I intend to ask about, It does not appear in any other advancement document andn if you think about it is not even supported by BSA. The document says that the BSA "discourages" parents from being mb counselors for their own children, But where do they discourage it? The Advancement policies and procedures manual does not discourage it. The Scoutmaster Handbook doews not discourage it. The Boy Scout Handboook does not discourage it. The Committee training and the Scoutmaster training do not discourage it. So when the document says that the BSa discourages it where and how is that happening? It isn't So how exactly does the BSA discourage it. You would think that if they wanted to discourage it that they would just say that parents cannot be counselors for their own children. But the BSA does not say that, in fact they specifically approve of it in the Advancement Policies. So that comment makes no sense when compared to all the other advancement and training references. Also when you think of all the available merit badges to say that getting counseling from a parent discourages Adult Association unless the parent is not an adult then that simply is not true, the goal of merit badges is not about how many different people you can meet but meeting different people. How many scouts have you ever known who got more merit badges from their parents than from other merit badges. I have worked with hundreds of scouts for decades and never saw a scout earn more than two merit badges from a parent. It is a non issue, and certainly not one worth worrying about or flexing your scoutmaster muscle over.

For interstates that's true, but I think most people would realize that a 30MPH street is not going to be aninterstate, and you do not get federal funds based o naighbood spped limits. But lets use the interstate speed limits if that helps you to comprehend the the approach. If the speed limit is 65, I go 65 because while going faster might be more convenient for me it could be harmful to others. I go the spped limit not because I trust the signs, but because I respect the rules. I understand what they are and why they exist. Altering the speed limit does not seem to alter the reason for following the rule. It seems that the reasoning behind the decision is sufficiently sound that it can adapt to a variety of rules and situations. Thanks Mom and Dad And while DOT finds that there is no relation between speed and the likelyhood of an accident, you failed too mention that there is a proven relationship between speed and the severity of each accident that occurs. You have the same niumber of bad drivers on the road regardless of the speed limit so of course the likelyhood of an accident does not change much.

It can't be that complicated if millions have been able to understand it for almost 100 years. I don't trust rules. I respect their purose. If the speed limit is 30, I go 30. Not because I trust the sign, I go 30 because that is the rule and going over 30 while it might be great for my needs can cause injury to someone else. So I respect why the rule exists. But no I do not trust it. I follow the rules of scouting not because I trust them but because not following the rules could be unfair or harmful to others. I follow the scout rules out if respect and understanding of why the exist. Isn't that what most of us were taught by our parents?

Aren't drapes hung vertically? I will try again. Why are the flags hung vertically on either side of the doorway?

(sigh)... So briantshore, why are there flags draped on either side of the door?

If you are going by the flag code then you have to know why the flags are hanging there. So briantshore, why are there two large flags draped on either side of the door? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yep, not a big deal. Its Economics 101. You want more services and resources you need to have healthy financials. In our district FOS has increased each year for the last several years, so we have added professional staff and spent gobs of money on our Summer Camp. Your community... not so good. It happens. It is a result of the economics and financial support of your community. The BSA did not do this to you. Your communities level of support of scouting did this to you. This give and take has gone on in every council for decades. I can only surmise that you are either rather new to Scouting or your experience beyond the unit level is very limited. Just know that this is nothing new and will probably change one way or another depending on the financial health of your council which is largely controlled by your community's support of FOS. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

When you don't get funds from the council you do what you have to do. You rely mostly o free services, put out a kitty to collect funds for refreshments, as volunteers to bring food, ask volunteers to bring ite,s for dorr prizes, etc. What you need is aplan to get on the councils line item budget for next year, and every year after that. Its tough to get program money after the budget has been established. You need to plan in advance and get your budget needs heard and into the council budget plan for next year. There are ways to accomplish this. I recommend you get someone from your Roundtable to attend Philmont Training Center to take part in the Scout Roundtable Conference. This is one of the topics they discuss.

You have asked the question in such a way that it you may not be be able to find precisely as you want it. The best that can be offered is read the requirements for a Local Tour Permit, the second is to read the section from the BSA liability document that was referenced recently in another thread. The third is to use the available resources of the BSA. Contact your local office and ask for whomever handles the insurance claims there. Or contact the National office, they will be happy to assist you as well. But to say I want to see a specific document that says specifically XYZ, well things are not always documented the way you see them in your head.

Districts are nothing more than geographic service areas of the council. Districts are not merged, Councils realign district boundaries from time to time. This is not a big deal, it is akin to election precincts being realigned. Belive me this is neither the first time or the last time this will happen. The most common cause is budgetary cuts or growths, and school distrcit realignments due to poulation and demographic shifts.. This just is not a big deal. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yes, the council executive represents national in many ways, but their role is to enforce the national policies not translate them as you said. And while the SE can set some policies for the council he cannot chage national policies. As some councils like the Cradle of Liberty council discovered when they tried to alter the BSA membership policies. You might check your personal settings, a PM was sent to you earlier today at whatever e-mail address you have placed in your settings on this forum. I anxiously await your response. Goldwinger writes "Why wouldn't he wear his uniform? According to BSA, the uniform is the perfect clothing for outdoor activities." I have to ask...when was the last time you read a Boy Scout Handbook? It hasn't said that for several years. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

1) Yes probably, the requirements for the Local Tour Permit say that any unit event away from the regular meeting site would require you to file a tour permit. Not all the sections will be applicable however. The only real exception I am aware of is a patrol activity when no adults will be present and no vehicles are involved. Since none of the permits sections would be applicable. 2) Yes, not filing the permit can have a definite bearing on liability protection. As an example we had an ASM in our district who held a Halloween party at his home at which he was the only adult present and no tour permit was filed. Since he did this under the pretense of being a troop activity the scouts' accident insurance was in force, however had a lawsuit ensued you can be sure that there would not have been liability protection for him as the BSA would have denied that it was a scouting activity based on the fact that no permit was sought or approved and BSA policies were not followed. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Actually BadenP you say the council's role is to translate national executive board decisions, I said the Council's role is to enforce them. Hardly the same. Then there is the matter of your off-handed comment regarding my experience in scouting that has not been addressed (or edited by a well meaning moderator). I believe that either and apology is due me or better yet you can share exactly what facts you know of my scouting experience that lead you to make such an inaccurate remark, based of course on your almost 5 years of experience as a DE.

Lone Scouts are registered directly with the local council. Just because thay are camping it is not a scout activity. They must have a camp plan approved by the council and meet the criteria for Lone Scout Camping set by the National executive board for it to be considered a scouting activity. The Lone Scout can also attend other scout activities hosted by local distrcit/council, or national events. Buut no simply caming out does not make it a scouting activity. Now the logical question arises that if the Lone Scout is camping alone, why would he wear a Boy Scout uniform, who is going to see it? So what purpose would it serve? Ed You should be well aware by now that the Methods of Scouting are tools used by adult leaders to deliver the scouting program. They are not things that are applied by the scout. Most scouts go through their entire scouting youth career never even hearing of the Methods of Scouting. The Lone Scout as I menetioned still has opportunites to attend scouting activities and many would be ones appropriate for wearing a BSA uiniform. I have to be honest I am surprised that these kinds of questions are being asked by such veteran scouters. I can understand someone who is untrained or relatively new not knowing these things. But there is nothing remotely difficult find or understand here. Who would honestly think that ANYYTHING and EVERYTHING a BSA member did would be considered a Scouting activity? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"So when a Lone Scout goes camping, that's not a Scouting activity? Not necearrily. If he goes camping with his church's youth group that is a church activity and not a scouting activity and so it would not be appropriate for him to wear his scout uniform ans the activity is outside the sphere of scouting, The church is not required to habe a BSA tour permiot, they are not required to follow any BSA policy of regulation, no one, including the Lone Scout is protected by BSA insurance or liability protection as the activity is OUTSIDE the sphere of scouting. "What about when a patrol goes hiking? That's not a unit activity so by your definition that's not a Scouting activity." The BSA executive board has clearlty identifiied a patrol activity as an approved unit activity providing it meets specific criteria. So if the patrol meets that criteria then they are protected by BSA insurace and they are responsible for following ALL BSA rules and regulations that are applicable to the activity. BUT if the activity does not meet the criteria then it is not a scouting activity and it is outside the sphere of scouting and the youth would not be protected. As an example. The members of the patrol plan a day hike to a local pool for a day of swimming. If the Scoutmaster approves it then it is a Scouting activity. The scouts must follow all BSA rules and regulations, and would have the benefiot of BSA accident insurance in case of an injury. If however the patrol leader and members of the patrol happen to meet up at the pool and spent the day swimming then it is not a scouting event, it is outside the sphere of scouting, they are not bound by BSA regulations and do not have the nbenefit of BSA accident insurance. Just by being a scout and being somewhere it does not make it a scouting event, just by being in uniform does not make something a scouting event.

The Boy Scout uniform is worn for Scouting activities or when representing the program in accordance to the parameters set by the national exectutive committee. It is not for events outside of scouting or events that are not in keeping with the rules and regulations of the BSA. Whether a Lone scout or an individual scout it doesn't matter. Simply by wearing the uniform does not make something a scouting activity. If you wear your uniform to work it does not mean that going to work is a scout activity. Nor does it cover you with BSA accident insurance or liability protection just because you are in uniform at work. BadenP: I really hope you are checking you PM e-mail.

"National has exempted us so as to conform to the accepted safety and procedures of the hobby and not BSA" Please share an example of such an exemption.

It really isn't the reading juggernaut you suggest it is. In order to make it easy the BSa puts the info out in topic specific documents rather than one large unwieldly book, if you have a question on boy scout advancement you can look in the Advancement manual un the Boy Scout program, it is only a few pages long. If you have a question on Cub Scout Uniforming you can look in the uniform manula under cub scouting, it is onley a couple of pages long. If your question is on fundraising you can look at the Unit Money earning application it is a 2-sided sheet of paper. For saftey look at the Guide to Safe Scouting, it is organized by activities so you only need to look under that specifc activity you are doing. there is no need to read the entire document. Granted it takes knowledge, but someone unwilling to learn should not have been selected for leadership, and yest it takes a small amount of effirt, but again, someone unwilling to put out any effort should not be selected for a leadeship position in any walk of life. So hopefully the people who are chosen to lead a scout program already understand and expect that they will have to learn new things.

Your council has a form requiring the name of the course they took? That is unique. Usually the thay ask "Have you taken basic training and when". The answer is either yes or no and a year. Since many councils gave local names to the training it would be impossible for national to have all the diffrent names in their data base so they use the current terms but it applies to all past training. Yesterdays, Cub Leader Basic, Scoutmaster Fundamental, Cornerstone, or Scoutmaster Basic, would be the equivalent of todays NLE and Job Specific Training no matter what the name or when it was taken. So a YES works for any of them.

A Lone Scout is no different than an individual scout doing anything outside of the unit. Their presence at an activity does not make it a Scouting activity. If a scout volunteers on a church project it does not become a scouting activity it is still the church's activity, outside the sphere of scouting. And while the youth can use that experience toward advancement that does not place the activity under the control or responsibility of ANY part of the BSA. No the project does not belong to the scout it belongs to the benefitting organization. The Scout cannot tell the park that they can or cannot do the project. The Park can however tell the scout what can or cannot be done, when, and how. The scout is there as a volunteer leader for the benefitting organization. (This message has been edited by BoB White)

You would hope that an adult scout leader had better things to do with their time than manipulate kids for their own personal reasons. The role of the SM with merit badges is to make sure the scout has the name and contact information of an approved and registered councselor. A parent can be an approved and registered counselor and is approved to councel their own son. If the scout wants to work with a specific approved counselor there is no reason for him not to.

National executive board sets the parameters and rules, the local council is charged with enforceing those rules. One of the things the national executive board says is that there is no "individual" activity in Boy Scouts. Scout activities must fit within the boundaries set by the national executive board. To think that a council can take another organization's activity and declare it a Scouting activity is irrational. To think that just because a BSA member is the head of an activity that it automatically is a Scouting activity is irrational. All Scouting activities are either unit activities, district/council activities, or regional/national activities. Anything else is outside the sphere of scouting. A scout troop can attend an air show as a troop activity, but that does not make the air show a scouting activity. Only the troop's outing is a scout activity. The air show is outside the sphere of scouting. The show is not bound by ANY BSA regulations, they did not need the permission of the council to put on the show, they do not have a budget approved by the council, they are not protected by BSA accident insurance or BSA liability protection. The activity of the air show is outside the sphere of scouting. Even if the show was led by someone who happened to be a BSA member, it would not be a scouting activity. Even if that BSA member were a youth it would not be a scouting activity. Even if the youth was using his experience with the show toward an advancement requirement it STILL would not be a scouting activity. The air show would still be outside the sphere of scouting, and the BSA would not have any responsibility for the activity at any level. Should the scout or scouter leading the activity be in uniform? No because it is not a scouting activity, even if they are using the skills they learned in scouting as they lead it. Because the event is NOT a scouting event. Could the troop visiting the air show be in uniform? Yes, they could be. Because they are there involved in a troop outing. The outing is a scout activity NOT the air show. Take this into the realm of an Eagle Service project to landscape a city park. The project belongs to the city, they do not need pernission from the BSA to landscape. They do not need to have the council activity committee approve a budget, they are not covered by BSA insurance or liability protection because the activity is outside the sphere of scouting. EVEN IF the project leader for the park is a registered BSA member it still is not a Scout activity, even if the project leader is a youth member it still is not a scout activity, and even if that youth member is applying the work toward a BSA requirement it still is not a scout activity. It is outside the sphere of scouting. The BSA has NO authority over the project. All the BSA does is accept or deny the scouts work toward an advancement requirement. If a troop goes to work on the landscaping the troop outing is a scout activity but the landscaping project still belongs to the city. Only the troop and its members are protected by the BSA, only the troop and its members are subject to BSA rules and regulations. The landscape project itself is OUTSIDE the sphere of scouting.