Bob White

My Bonnie Lies over the ocean, but every time you say a woird that begins with the letter 'B' you change position from sitting to standing or vice versa. Sitting) My Bonnie (stand up)lies over the ocean My Bonnie (sit down) lies over the sea My Bonie (stand up) lies over the ocean Oh Bring (Sit Down) back (stand up) my Bonnie (sit down) to me Bring (stand up) Back (sit down) bring (stand up) back (sit down) Oh Bring (stand up) back (sit down) my Bonnie (stand up) to me, to me Bring (sit down) Back (stand up) bring (sit down) back (stand up) Oh Bring (sit down) back (stand up) my Bonnie (sit down) to me Start off very slow and with each round speed up. Then of course there is: Head shoulders kness and toes. If you're happy and you know it I points to myself Singing in the rain My name is Joe Father Abraham One finger one thumb Threw it out the window those are just a few of my favorites. Scouting Spirit

I don't believe that anyone has said that people who are legally allowed and trained should not administer epi. But you said that Wilderness Student by virtue of having WFR was certified to for the use of epi...and that wasn't correct was it? Until the law changes or until there is a person in the group who meets the current criteria, then they should not be taking epi with them. There are several far more likely life endangering things that can happen in the outdoors that they can prepare for, and do so legally, that epi-pens should not be the priority that it is being given here. This is a rare and unlikely emergency. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are no "rules" regarding this activity. You cannot say people are going overboard with rules when there are NO rules in the BSA on this activity.

If you have tried to e-mail in the last couple of months through the PM feature on this site I have not recieved it. If you were seeking answers to questions regarding Scouting then I apologize for not getting your message or getting back to you with a response. I was receiving flame mail from one forum member and in attempting to block him it blocked all mail from the forum. I have removed the block for now and we will see how it goes. Troy I sent your response through your e-mail featue on your web site and so you should have recieved it.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The american or the european swallow? All non-fiction writing is merely reference material is it not? The difference is what it references. More scouts would benefit if more scouters followed Karen's example and used the official BSA references to find answers to their questions on scouting. Like HillBilly, Karen's only problem was inexperience. And inexperience is easily overcome with time and practice. How to use the G2SS and the Activities Guideline is explained in the New Leader Essentials and in the Leader Specific Training courses if they have taken those courses, and IF the trainers followed the syllabus, or for those of in cases like Hillbilly's simply by reading the preface of the document But I give them both credit for being open to learning new information and to understanding what the BSA resources say and how to use them rather than relying on the hearsay or habit of others to learn program policies and procedures. Asking questions is a good way to learn as long as you your goal is to learn the actual answers and you are not just wanting to hear your opinion supported.

Troy Since I feel you deserve a response I will send you an e-mail through your website. I will include an e-mail address that you can use to respond to me if you would like. I am posting here so that others will understand that I have tried to respond to your "private" message. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That does it I will never base my first aid training on MASH reruns again! Germ what we are trying to say is that unless you have the appropriate training you really don't know that using the epi pen is going to make things better, you could in fact be making the situation worse. You could even possible cause a death that without your intervention may not have happened. You should not administer medications that you are not properly trained to use. Did I mention that someone is more likely to be struck and killed by lightning than die from a bee sting? In fact far more people will win the lottery than die from a bee sting and think of the astronomical odds of winning the lottery. This is not the medical emergency issue that some people want to make of it.

The Good Samaritan Act does not protect you for ANYTHING you do. It protects you for reasonable acts within your knowledge and capability. If someone is unable to breath and you give him the Heimlich Maneuver and you break his rib, The good Samaritan Act would likely protect you. But if you take your pocket knife and part of a pen casing and try to do an esophageal airway because you saw it on a MASH rerun, do not expect to be protected by the Good Samaritan Act. Giving an epi dose because someone on a web forum said you could is unlikely to impress anyone charged with determining if you acted within the limits of your knowledge and capabilities. Nor will saying you took a first aid course that didn't cover the specific protocols for administering pharmaceuticals.

Actually the Guide is supposed to keep adults from doing dumb things that get other people's children injured. It's second purpose is to protect the assets of the council and national office from loss due to adults doing dumb stuff that injuries other people's children. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Within the patrols they should have a duty roster to rotate scouts through various daily chores such as Cooking, Cleaning, Fire building etc Each person should be responsible for picking up after themselves and for safety. But is is much easier to do and better for the scouts if this is done within each patrol.

Dad just needs a little help to refocus his attention. You or another leader sould buddy up with him, draw him into other tasks sand then while you have his attention you can slowly trainin him to understand the methods of the program. Help him to watch his scout and the others from a distance rather than from right next to them. Remember you can't complain both when you can' get adults to come, and then also when they want to. At least he takes an interest, now you just need to help him curb his enthusiasm a little.

"It is true that only about 1 in 100 people die from a bee sting" Oh mercy no! It's nowhere near that high. The stats are that only 3% of all adults would even have a serious reaction to a sting and only a tiny percentage of them would have a fatal reaction. You are statistically more likley to get struck and killed by lightning than to die from a bee sting. Perhaps your personal fear of bees is what is prompting you in this matter. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

With only 50 deaths annually nationwide (and not all of those happening during outoor ed activities) who is the one promoting fear here? Statistically this is one of the least likely causes of death or even illness that you will ever encounter in an outdoor program. By licensed I am sure you know I was referring to a professional medical personal who are legally approved to store or disburse phamaceuticals. I have spend hundreds of nights camping, hiking, caving, climbing, skiing, etc. as have many scout leaders, with not only the absence of epi but without occassion where we needed epi, no fatalities of any kind. I am sorry, but to suggest that going out without epi is going to lead to watching someone die in agony is absolute silliness and fear mongering.

The members were all Christian and Jewish. So the use of the old testament was a common thread. Since the Old Testament is recognized and respected in most religions it is a safe way to begin. As the syllabus ppoints out it helps to know the background of the participants.

Any adult leader in the BSA who is not licensed to handle medication (excluding than external ointments) had better have some really good lawyers behind them if they administer them to someone else's child. Usually the medication needed and used on a scouting activity is for a known condition for which the individual scout has a normal prescription.

Karen you have misunderstood the topic I believe. There is nothing in the policies of the Guide to Safe Scouting that prohibits cubs from cooking. In fact cub cooking is not in the G2SS at all really. It is in a separate document attached to the on-line G2SS called the "Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities" in the opening paragraph the BSa says "Age and rank-appropriate guidelines have been developed based on the mental, physical, emotional, and social maturity of Boy Scouts of America youth members." These are program recommendations to help you as aleader choose activities best suited for the youth you lead at their level of age and development. These are not in and of themselves policies although some do have other policies attached to the activity. As a den leader with well behaved cubs who could understand the need for appropriate behavior when weilding flaming marshmellows yo would be fine to do that. Would I let a pack of cubs near a bonfire with sharp obects and flaming snacks? Not a chance. You need to look at each of these activities and at the abilities of the group you are leading and make good choices. The purpose of the Activity Guidelines is to aid you in that decision making. BW

First, this is nothing new. The distiction between BSA policy and Guidelines has been in the G2SS for many years. If you look at the heading of this particular section you will note that it says "Guidelines for safely using chemical stoves and lanterns". Knowing that not everything in a BSA manual is a policy might help you be less confused by the G2SS contents. But realize that does not mean that the times you have seen the storage rule that is was not policy. What you need to realize is that the council can make anything they want "policy" at council activities or on council property. Just as some parks may require you to do things not in bold font in the G2SS, but to which you must comply in order to use their facilities. The Bold passages in the G2SS are things that you as a unit leader must do, or not do, whenever your are leading a scouting activity. The rest are recommended practices unless a local authority deems otherwise So the storage rules not being in bold font means that they are recommended practices for troop and patrol activities, when over-riding local policies do not exist.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a Scoutmaster, each Sunday morning when we had an activity, the scouts would form a circle. One scout would read a passage we had selected from the old testament that related to a positive values, some were directly relateable to the oath and law and some were not. We then went around the circle and each scout said either something they do in their life to reflect that value or something they would try to do more of in their life to reflect that value. We then redicated ourselves to the values of the Scout Law. Then we held hands and went around the circle and each scout and scouter said either something that they were grateful to God for or something they wanted God's help for. Finally we had a moment of silent prayer so each person could talk to God in their own way (or not). I can honestly say that in all the years we did this no one every said they were uncomfortable, no one ever chose not to particiapate. The parents who witnessed it were often genuinely moved by it. But we also put scouts into vehicles and drove them to the church of their faith whenever it was possible. Sometimes distance and availability did not allow us to do it, but we made every effort to help those who wanted to fufill their obligation to do so. While this non-denominational activity works great in a small group (30 OR LESS) it is difficult to do in a larger group.

PM feature is evidently not working. I ahve not recieved any message from you. I see no sign that the BSA is reducing the amount of recognition. I just think the program is not interested in designating people who earn all the merit badges as "elite". You recieved accolades as a youth for your accomplishement did you not? You got your merit badge badge patches your Eagle palms, hardy handshakes and pats on the back didn't you? Now you want to recognize yourself, by making yourself your own knot to wear, so that others can ask you what is for and you can tell them yet again of your "elite" standing in the program. Don't you find that at all self-grandizing? I think what you did was a marvelous feat, and I congratulate you for your accomplishment. And if the BSA wanted to present you with a recognition for it then that's fine. But to declare yourself "elite" and create your own award because you cannot get the BSA to give you more awards then you got...that's just sad. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Neither quote you supplied suggests or supports that "most " volunteer groups carry epi-pens. I think supplying the actual data would be needed to support that statement. Jacob's comment seems clearly aimed at professional outdoor ed groups, notivce that he is talking about an "industry" standard. And a professional group such as he represents probably has licensed medical people on staff I would expect that most volunteer groups that utilize the outdoors, (Scout units for instance) are likely only have epi on hand if it is carried by a member with a prescription, or if the have a licensed medical practioner on the trip . This might be a good survey to try at roundtables. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I have seen many attempts at an interfaith serve and few that do not end up being a christian faith service. I do not thinlk it is done intentionally but more out of personal habit and patterns of worship that we develop in our own lives. It should also be made clear that this is not a religious service nor does it meet the worship obligations of some religions. For instance a scout interfaith service does not fulfill the religious obligations for Catholics, or for members of the LDS church as well as others. And units should take that into consideration. The interfaith service as a tool to help scouts see the connection between scouting and faith (which is what the training syllabus suggests) is fine. But for many faiths it is not a recognized religious celebration and it does not release scouts or scouters from the obligations of their specific religions. As I said before I know of no other element of scouting where they teach you how to apologize for doing the activity. If they need to prepare you to aplogozize then perhaps the they need to re-think the structure of the activity. It is very difficult to be all things to all people. So perhaps that is not a goal they should attempt. They started off well by centering it around the Scout Oath and Law, which we all share. It is a very tricky line to cross, especially in larger groups, to try and introduce religious practices or beliefs without offending a lot of people.

Somehow I doubt that this is the final version of this program element. I say that only because when you have to build into the training a session on how to apologize to the people you will offend, then a big red flag should be waving telling you that this is not the final product.

Wilderness student. My point I was working toward is that to carry every medication t=you might need for any possible emergency is not practical, especially for your level of experience. You have stated in earlier posts that you are a novice at the outdoor stuff. So perhaps finding back door ways to carru controlled phamaceuticals is a little more than you and your group should be biting off at this time. One poster says that "most" volunteer groups of this sort carry epi-pens. Not only am I sure that it is untrue, I am sure it is unprovable. I would welcome the poster to provide us the reference source of that data, as I am confident no such data exists. This is not the greatest danger you will find in the outdoors. http://www.theallergyauthority.com/allergy/articles/allergy-bee-sting.asp only 1% of children and only 3% of adults are likely to have a serious reaction. In fact only 50 people die annually from such stings. The odds that it will happen on one of your outings is minuscule at best. You have a greater danger from broken bones, bleeding wounds, or infection, than from stings. Sure carrying an epi-pen seems a lot cooler than carrying a tube of anti-biotic, but the anti-biotic is something you will probably need. Consider learning more about camping and get some entry level adventure experience under your belt before you start trying to obtain controlled pharmaceuticals and heading into the wilderness.

I am unsure what the dimemma is here? Are you aware of someone in your group who is highly allergic to bee venom, or for some other reason requires to have epinephrine on hand? If so wouldn't they have a prescription and epi-pens on them? If you want it as a precaution just in case you should need it, then wouldn't this be one of many pharmaceuticals you would have to take with you just "in case" something happened? Probably not the best way to be prapared. You need to look at the activity and learn what the must common injuries will be and prepare foor them. Side story: Camping one fall at a state park the scouts noticed several yellow jackets flying in and out of a burrow nearby. An assistant Scoutmaster felt that we should mark the area to keep the scouts away from the activity. Before anyone could stop him he had grabbeded a stake, a hammer, and some flagging tape...and began hammering a stake in the ground near the undergound hive. The yellow jackets did not appreciaite the vibrations. We counted 11 stings on him in all. He was not a "happy camper". His actions did however serve the purpose of keeping the scouts away from the hive. No one went anywhere near it after they saw what happened to him. Prevention is the best medicine, leading by example was a painful sustitute.

"But if reponses continually elicit hostile rebuttals, perhaps ones style needs to be tempered." Perhaps it is the hostile rebuttals that should be tempered?