Bob White

Sure Amandeux2, The ticket you write for completion of the Wood Badge course does not have to be your last. As it was explained to you at the course, this is not the end of your learning but a beginning. Having a written oplan is an excellent step to realizing and achieving your golas. Some people (myself included) write a new ticket every year. It is a tool for planning and goal setting. Unlike your Wood Badge ticket you do not need to share it with anyone else or get it approved, altho sharing it with a mentor who can keep you motivated and help you manage hurdles can be very helpful. It is simply a tool for you to use to keep yourself focused and growing.

I think most the time when an activity is really memorable there are so many elements that interact that to try and replicate that feeling is really impossible. Weather, mood, setting, interpersonal relationships, preparedness, respopnsiveness, all play a role. Everyone sang a lot in our last course and it was great fun. But that doesn't mean if you sing a lot on your couse that it will get the same response. In the previous course we hardly ever sang except for the occasional Gilwell song, but somehow a contest of cap decorating got started between the patrols, and it became a highlight of the week. I don't think it is so much what you do that will make it memorable. It is about how you lead. Is the staff developed into a team prior to the course? Does the staff have a strong sense of the needs and characteristics of each participant? Are you aware of what elements or activities are registering more positively with the participants. Is everyone eating and sleeping well? Is the staff teaching? Are the participants learning? What works well is good leadership, the chemistry will often follow.

You will find it in Chapter 10 of the Scoutmaster handbook as well as in the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. Two of the three times are spelled out but the first of the three is assumed. Immediate recognition upon certification from the board of review (a hardy handshake, and some encouraging words would be appropriate) and I believe it is such a natural thing to do that it is not spelled out in the handbook. The second is the presentation pof the badge at the next meeting, the third is presentation of the pocket certificate at the quarterly court of honor.

The BSA owns the image and use of the official uniforms of the BSA, whether or not they choose to pursue the matter of the shirt on the cover of the magazine is their choice, is it not? The Young Osmonds are all Eagle scouts.

Doesn't a lot depend on the skills and abilities of the adults in questionto perform in their specific role?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is nothing constructive about an adult leader denying advancement to scout when the adult did not do their job.

Part of the problem is one of clear communications and an understanding of the terms being used. Nondenominational, interfaith, nonsectarian, interdenominational, are often used in scouting conversations interchanged with one another (on and off of this forum), yet they all mean different things, and none refer to a worship service that respects ALL beliefs. You cannot have a single worship service that will respect the beliefs of everyone present unless you know for a fact that some common doctrine or belief exists that is shared by everyone present. Unless you know the faith characteristics of every single participant at the celebration then the only thing you know for sure they have in common is that have all promised to follow the values of scouting. So the best way to accomplish the goals of the scout worship activity to to focus on that shared belief and give each person a way to draw a connection between the scouting values and their personal beiefs on their own without pressing upon the situation the beliefs of one faith or all faiths. You can tell of how other faiths have elemnts of the Oath and Law in their beliefs, without having to ask the participants to pray or worship as other beliefs pray or worship. A Hindu should not be asked to pray the Lord's Prayer and a Christian should not be asked to pray to the gods of the American Indian. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you follow the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook then the only junior leadership position that requires the scoutmaster's approval is Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. As for the junior leader reqirement (not to be confused with the membership requirememt, while the scout has the responsibility to serve acively the scoutmaster has the resonsibility to coach and counsel actively. So who should we expected to do their job better the adult or the youth? If the adult has not actively done their role then you should not punish the scout for not doing his. If scout isn't going to get credit for his office and the adult hasn't performed their role, then maybe the adult should not be rewarded for the office he or she has held either?

Let's be honest its not the cost, it is the value. Millions of people every year pay hundreds of dollars per person for a few days at Disney World and never complain, infact they rave about it. So it is not the money it is the return on investment that determines whether you mind spending the money or not. Event planning and event administration are different skill sets and not everyone is going to have either or both sets of skills. Even in an entire council you might not have people skilled to do this and if you have there is no guarnatee that they are on the activities committee. If you think you have those skills that's awesome. Share them with others. If you have a better plan write it up and send it to the activities chair. Sell your ideas and offer your skills to make it happen for the good of all the scouts in your community. Complaining is not an action for change, and only through action will you get positive change. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

How to listen so that kids will talk & Talk so that kids will listen- Faber and Mazlish The Boy Scout Handbook The One-Minute Manager Meets the Monkey Blanchard

I am curious how you managed to determine it was appendicitis in the field? Appendicitis presents itself with many of the same symptoms of several other illnesses such as gall bladder problems, bladder and urinary infection, and intestinal infections. Accurate diagnosis usually requires urine and blood analysis, and sometimes a cat scan. That aside the first aid teatment for potential appendecitis is...Do not eat, drink, or use any pain remedies, antacids, or laxatives, because they can inflame the appendicts and cause it to rupture which can quickly be fatal. Unfortunately at your current level of training you were unaware of this protocol. So not only was your field diagnosis questionable, both treatments used would potentially be fatal. First aid protocol is that if you cannot safely transport the victim to medical aid then you bring the medical aid to the victim. Having the scout sit quietly, had you "diagnosed" appendicitis, would have been less likely to produce a perforation or rupture due to inflamation and would have been far less painful to the patient. The better procedure would probably have been to contact professional medical aid and bring them to the victim. You had at least two methods for contacting help; send two people hiking to the nearest trailhead while two others went to the nearest eleveated ground with a cell phone to call emergency services. If the patient needed to be transported the local emergency services could have told you the best place to take him to for pick up. Now lets look at this list you offered. The units are more active. Units that train and prepare will not be frequently taking scouts to the emergency room no matter how active they are. The units have more members. Training and preparation along with responsible leadership can keep any size scout unit safe. The scouter reportin' has had more years experience. Another generalization. Do you honestly believe that leaders in Sea Scouts have less experience than leaders in Boy Scouts? Based on what evidence? I for instance likely have more unit leadership experience than say...you. It's possible isn't it? Besides when it comes to first aid proper training and application is more impotrtant than having a lot of experience doing the wrong thing. The scouter reportin' attends a higher percentage of unit activities. Again a generalization that has no bearing on the ability to correctly follow first aid procedures or know how to handle medications. The unit is in a state which has more natural hazards than flat midwestern farmland. Even here in the farmlands we have them their horseless carraiges. To think that with today's transportation resources that units do not travel is silly. To thing that most locations is the country do not offer a variety of topography withing a small radius is simply ill-informed. The unit is in a state which has more variable weather (colder winters, etc.) Again irrelevant to knowing proper first aid procedures and medication protocols. The units are engaged in activities with a higher risk profile than sailin'. You evidently know very little about 'sailin' Fact is, it's extremely rare that any OTC medication Really? http://www.webmd.com/stroke/news/20030711/over-the-counter-drugs-may-cause-strokes http://www.chiropracticresearch.org/NEWSDrugEffects.htm http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/652775/prescription_cough_medicine_linked.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article420341.ece All OTC, all oral. I welcome you to find an article on fatalities caused by Neosporin or a similar product. I have not resisted training, I have all kinds of trainng experience. You are again being purposely inaccurate in recounting what I have posted. (and I am not the only poster who has pointed this out to you.) I have maintained that not only is training important but that staying within the actual limits of that training is vital for the safety of the patient as well as the caregiver. To recommend or support the distribution of internal medications (oral or injected) by people who do not have the training or certification to do be allowed to do that is not safe or responsible advice to give others. PS PDFs like other personal protection equipment helps reduce evacuaton time greatly. Through proper training and prearation and reasonable precautions (like wearing PDFs on boats underway) the likelyhood of an emergency requiring evacuation is greatly reduced. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

"BobWhite, you're an assistant unit leader for a Sea Scout Ship, right? That virtually guarantees a long response and transport time whenever you're on da water." Well Beavah you are half right. I am a Mate on a Sea Scout Ship. However being on the water does not mean a prolonged response time. Not being prepared is what prolongs responce time. Here is how we prepare in the Ship. Safety Controls: All our members are swimmers Everyone wears a personal flotation device when underway We have three certified life guards We have first aid kits aboard each boat (or in the case of the smallest boats there us a safety vessel near by with a first aid kit. We use buddy boats Many of our members have various ARC first aid training We have radios aboard each vessel and the scouts are trained in their operation. We have safety protocols for the operation of each vessel that the scouts must know before they go out. There is a responsible skipper (youth or adult) aboard each vessel who is the single person of authority when the boat is underway and is trained in responding to emergencies. In accordance with the BSA regulations we stay in sight of our home port OR we have a float plan filed so we know the routes and whereabouts of every vessel and who is onboard. When out of sight of the home port we know our location and the location of the nearest port. All our vessels except for the smallest boats have outboard motors on board and operational. In response to an emergency. If not already onboard we can retrieve a person overboard quickly and safely. We can radio for assistance and have professional medical care come to us, or be moving under to power to meet professional medical care on shore in moments. In the mean time we can give the injured party aid that is within the boundaries of our knowledge and training. We carry no drugs other than antibiotics as a Ship, each scout and leader however carries a duffel or sport bag that includes a personal first aid kit and personal medication along with other safety controls such as foul weather gear, suntan lotion, and drinking water. We have had ZERO medical emergencies within our membership. Because of our preparation we have been able to respond to other boaters with emergencies and never had reason for supplying them with any internal medications. Units that are frequently taking scouts for emergency medical attention (as two posters have already said they do) are doing many things incorrectly. With proper training and planning, along with responsible supervision, the need for emergency medical care is rarely needed if ever. And if someone was presenting syptoms of severe stomach pain or fever the last thing I would do is give them anything internal other than water, without the advice of a medical professional. scoutldr While many things can be classified a poison you well know that it is extremely, extremely, rare that an external medication such as an alcohol swap, anti-biotic, calamine, ivy dry etc causes any adverse symptom, EVER. and that when it does it is almost always a skin irriitation taht is quickly remedied simply by rinsing of the medication. Internal medications that have negative side effects are not going to be that easy to mitigate without professional medical care. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"That must be the midwest for you. Here in the East, we've taken Scouts to the hospital for quite a few things and just armed with our official Scout documents, the docs have medicated and sutured ill and injured Scouts without ever speaking with the parents." If you are frequently needing to take scouts to the hospital maybe forms aren't your biggest problem. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Besides, a doc refusin' treatment to a sufferin' child because it ain't immediately life threatening would be a malpractice attorney's delight." Not at all Beavah, Treating a minor without the knowledge of the parents or without verification of drug allergies and medical history would be far more dangerous. Pain is uncomfortable but the doctor while not treating with medications can use other treatments to reduce the discomfort. Beavah writes..."Ain't a special difference between "internal" and "external". That neosporin we choose to slap on a wound could put a child in serious hurt in da wrong circumstances." That's not actually true either. External medications are far less likely to cause additional harm. Side effects from external meds usually manifest as skin irritations and in nearly every situation can be mitigated or reversed simply by removing the sustance. The same is not true of internal medications. "I think all Scouters should take the time to do a high-quality WFA course, and high adventure trip leaders should complete WFR. I understand that is what you think, but the BSA and a lot of others do not think that way. For one reason it's impractical. Not ALL scouters are involved in wildernes activities that would require that level of expertise. What is is need is that leaders have a good understanding of the possible injuries taht may occur on a particular outing and have an emergency plan suitable to provide appropriate care of the injured or ill parties. For some units (such as ones I have been part of, we have always had professionally trained medical personnel with us for high adventure and backcountry activities. Having EVERYONE training is nice buit certainly not necesarry. "I'm glad some folks are lucky and have never had lads or lasses get ill on trips, eh? " Yeah sure dats not da case at all don'tcha know..For the few times I have had a sout get ill on a campout we always did one of two things. We got the scout back into the custody of the parent, or we got the scout into the care of professional medical personnel. The purpose of first aid is to be able to get the patient to professional medical help as quickly as possible. "I think another good rule is that scouters should act in loco parentis, standin' in place of the parents, and take care of a child in da same way they would if it was their own." For all your comlainin' you use more legal jargon than ANY other poster. While you may think the Scoutmaster should have the authority to act 'in Loco Parentis' (in place of the parent) for every child, there are LOTS of parents who are not about to give that much authority to ANYONE. (not to mention that it is doubtful that this is related to the one of two conditions in which it is applied: in universities, or with a non-blood relative custodial parent. It is not actually applicable in relationship to this topic. But you can check that out with the real lawyers and see.) Before you go putting medications into their son that their doctor or they themselves did not supply, most parents are going to want more to go on then the opinion of a medically undertrained scout leader and they are not going to want to hear about it after the fact. I agree that training is important I hope you agree that staying within the limits of that training is important as well.. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Since you asked for their 'area' of expertise, how about asking for their 'level' of expertise? It would be helpful to know what their level of medical training and authorization for carry and dispensing those drugs to others is as well would it not? Even if the answer is none, it would be helpful to know that.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Rod Stewart "Forever Young"

Different people have different callings. If you are looking to work in the field of non-profit administration it can have many personal rewards and at the mid to upper levels you can, in many communities, make a good salary. It is as honest and worthwhile profession as any other. The important thing to understand, especially if you are coming from a youth membership or unit leader perspective, is that it is not about planning a youth program. It is for the most part about administrating the corporation that develops and maintains the resources for the units. The profession of scouting is about keeping the council growing in money, manpower, and membership. Having good unit meetings and outings is the responsibility of volunteers at unit local and national levels. The job of the professional is to manage the business end of scouting so that units can focus on program.

Having a signed permission slip from the parent is for the most part useless. While rules may vary in sopme States, I can tell you based on the advice of medical doctors I have talked with i at least 4 States (and I welcome you actually talk with a doctor), even they will not give internal medications of any kind to a minor without talking directly to their parent or legal guardian first unless it is a matter of life or death. In all the years and hundreds of days and nights camping and doing high adventure activiies as a unit leader, I have only had 3 medical situations that required internal mediciations for a scout. In every case the doctor would only do exteral treatment until he or she spoke personally with the parent or guardian before giving then a pill or injection dispite the fact that we had a complete nedical history, recent ohysical and parents waiver for medical treatment. Having a form signed by the parents does not give untrained persons the authority or knowledge to handle pharmaceuticals for other people's children. If a doctor knows that about your forms then you should be aware of it too. As far as medications the scouts bring, here is what we do. If the scout is not capable of managing the drugs themselves then the parent can come and administer them. The leaders will, if asked by the scout or parents, remind the scout to take their meds and even watch the scout take their meds. We do not hold them, he do not hand them out. This policy has never been a problem with the parents and we are not aware of it ever keeping a scout from participating. I had this same procedure as a Cub leader, a Boy Scout leader and in Venturing If a scout were to become seriously ill we get doctors, we don't pretend to be them. Being trained in first aid is not the same as being training and permitted to store or distribute internal medications.

All risk management (safety)is safety by control...ALL of it! Safety by its very definition is about actions taken to avoid or minimize injury. Proper medical training is required to be effective AFTER the incident takes place to treat the illness or injury. That medical action has very different protols then the safety protocols will have. Then, after the injury or illness occurts, other risk management (safety) protocols kick in to do two things. 1) reduce the risk of further injury or harm to the patient while they are treated or wait for treatment, 2) reduce the risk of injury or harm to the care giver. Part of that secondary level of safety is don't do procedures that you are not trained and competent in. It is a risk to the patient and to the care giver. No one has said that properly trained people should not carry and use emergency meds such as epi. But Beavah said that Wilderness Student had that skill and competency based on her level of first aid training, and that just is not true. When you were a tiny Beavah your mom taught you to stop and look both ways before crossing the street. This was not an option was it? Even if she could not see any cars coming you were to stop. And if you looked only one way rather than two you probably heard about it because the process is stop, look, then cross. So now that you have years and years of crossing the street do you just charge out without stopping and looking based on your years of experience? Or do you follow the protocols to avaoid injury? Would you tell another person that based on your years of experience of never getting hit by a car that they don't have to look both ways before they venture into the road? That is basically what you do when you discount the need for proper training before dispensing or injecting other people with pharmaceuticals when they are not trained to do so. 'Nah, ya'll jist go head and giv'm that there epi, heck I ain't never had a problem.' Your experiences does not override the required training and protocols for handling drugs. No matter what they do, no matter what the circumstances, if a person crosses the line and takes on the risks associated with administering drugs it should be because they were informed and knowedgeable of the risks they take based on their level of training and certification and are willing to accept the possible results, and not because someone convinced them that the risks didn't matter and that they should do what they want. There have been a number of legitimate medical and legal reasons for advising Wilderness Student to not take or administer epi based on the current level of medical training she has (or more accurately doesn't have.) That advice is far more responsible and concerned for both her and her patient than the counseling that she has gotten to the contrary.

Troy I think what you are missing is that if the BSA decided to introduce a uniform designation for Scouts who earned every merit badge (and keep in mind that earning every merit badge and earning the Eagle Award are separate accomplishments. One does not have to do one in order to do the other) then few if any posters or scouters in general would have a problem with that. I expect the problem that many people have, and that I share, is that YOU believe YOU are special and deserving of more recognition than you feel you have been given by the BSA, and so you are creating an award for yourself for others to see and be impressed by. I believe that the reason you don't just print yourself a certificate, as another poster suggested, is that you want something visible to the public and the scouting community on your uniform that would be rare and unique. You want that because after all you feel you are special and unique among scouters, and we should all see that. The negative feedback you are receiving has nothing to do with group think, but is caused by your own actions to reward yourself based on your personal perception of self-importance. PS in regards to another posters comment that you will probably get a response soon from the BSA..that probably will not happen. That has nothing to do with the quality of you suggestion, it's just that things do not happen that quickly. It often takes years for a uniform recognition to be approved. Plus, the National office is a little busy right now with projects and activities surrounding the 100th anniversarry as well as their regular business and works in progress.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I doubt that fear plays any role in this. More likely the biggest factor is that most adults realize that it would be irresponsible to practice medicine beyond the limits of their formal training. Bringing internal medications to distribute to someone else's child without formal medical training in the storage, administration and potential dangers of each drug is irresponsible and dangerous. Doctors are not qualified to be scout leaders simply because they are doctors, and scout leaders are not qualified to be doctors siomply because they are scout leaders. I think most adult know that.

I'll do my job the best I can and if you ever need my help call me, and I'll do my best to help you. All I ask is that you do the same. (It's important to keep in mind that it is not the volunteers role to train the DE or the DE's role to please the volunteer. The DE's job is to meet his or her goals set by his or her superiors in the scouting profession. Good pros learn from others around them in and out of scouting, just as good volunteers keep learning from others both in and out of scouting. It's a cooperative relationship. The De's role is to do their jown job and the volunteers role is to do their own job, and if all goes rigtht they end up helping each other.)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Our first aid kit contains external medications only. It is unwise and dangerous to give oral medications even OTC products to other people's children. One does not need to be a doctor or a laywer to understand the dangers of such behavior. Unless you are specifically trained you take great risk with the welfare of the child by pretending to be a doctor or pharmacist with the scouts you serve. Even OTC medications can be altered by age and temperature and be rendured ineffective or even toxic. In addition you have the dangers of allergies to medicines and dangerous interactions between medications as well as with other maladies the individual has that you could be unaware of. We are not diagnosticians. We are first aiders, and first aid does not include oral medications. The only possible exception I can think of is when instructed to induce vomiting in case of poisonings. Whether it is tylenol or epi, the scout should bring their own medication and it should be used with that scout only, in accordance with the instructions from a physician.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The on-line version of the requirements book has been available for a few months now at the BSA website at: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/advancementandawards.aspx