Bob White

Gee, I was was sure that the scouts simply didn't tuck their shirts in. I think you lay far too much of the blame on inanimate fabric and not enough responsibility on the person wearing the clothing. Why else could so many scouts in one troop keep their shirts tucked in while some scouts in another cannot. This hardly seems to be a matter of friction or lack of. We had a scouter in our District whose shirt tails kept escaping his trousers. It appears it was also capable of evading a washing mashing and an iron. I really can't believe this is a problem with the uniform but with its owner. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Your problem is explained in your opening post. Others see how overworked and burned out you and the other person are, and so they have no interest in volunteering. You are your own worst recruitment poster. You problem is not that you need a popcorn chair, that is just a symptom of what your actual problem is. As the CC you need to learn how to select, recruit, and delegate effectively or your chances of recruiting for ANY adult position is minimal. The BSA has a selection and recruitment plan that you should strongly consider embracing. http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/selecting%20quality%20leaders.aspx (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It seems evident from uniforming that many of us have witnessed in some troops that even today's fabric cannot stay tucked in. I would hope that people would realize that making such a determination before the uniform has actually been worn is extremely premature. So far all we have seen is a few photos. Some people have been waiting years to criticize whatever the next scout uniform was going to be. You would think thay could wait just a few more months until they at least saw one in person, or God forbid actually wore it a few times, before they started to criticize it.

DonM Be sure to discuss this with people who have been through Wood Badge in the last 7 years. Wood Badge training , and they way it is taught, has changed significantly with the release of Wood Badge for the 21st Century (the current Wood Badge program). Also remember that for many of the participants the skills they learned about in Wood Badge are new to them, and like with any new skill they will need practice at it to become proficient, and practice often includes moments of both succees and failure, that is all part of the learning process. If your expectation is that just because someone has returned from a Wood Badge course they should know exactly what they are doing and how to do it then you have very unreasonable expectations. I would suggest your better approach would be to observe the leaders around you and see who you observe demonstrating the best leadeship skills. Talk with them about what they gained from Wood Badge. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

A ticket is a set of goals that the participant selects to accomplish in order to move closer to fulfilling their vision of their role in the Scouting Program. Each ticket is unique to each author since each person has a different vision and has different needs within their role in scouting. So three cubmasters from three different packs will have three completely different tickets due to their personal vision and their specific needs within each different unit. What is your vision of what you want to accomplish in your role in scouting Gklose? What is something specific and measurable that you have control over that you would like to accomplish within a specific time period which would move you closer to your vision? That would be a potential ticket item. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not think you can say that the uniform has been "rolled out" yet since you cannot actually purchase it at this time. According to the available information it will not be for sale until the fall. That still gives the BSA months to get the details communicated. Patience is a virtue.

Bear in mind that all of those elements mentioned by Dancin Fox are Council specfic, and while they may be true in the council he serves they do not necessarily exist in each of the the over 300 councils in the BSA.

You need to realize that being a scout is more than just dressing like a scout, and that sometimes a youth quits scouting but forgets to stop coming to the meetings. Such youth can, and have, driven good scouts from a troop or from the program altogether. Our primary responsibility is to deliver the mission of scouting to those who want to share in it, not to have our attention taken by those who want to interfere with it. A youth who brings illegal drugs to a scout activity has already quit the program, he just forgot to stop coming.

Lets take a medical school whose vision and mission is to provide an eductaion that would develop quality physicians. There is a student there who chooses not follow the rules for being a physician that is required of ALL the students and his behavior detracts or distracts fron the education of the other students. Does the schools vision or mission require them to retain that student at all costs? Or is it there respponsibility to do what is best for those who willing do their best to learn?

"just because you aren't the primary unit leader you still are part of the leadership in the unit that has the responsibility of all the youth in the unit on the trip with you" I do not disagree, in fact I said the very same thing. Our responsibility was to all the scouts there and so we acted accordingly. I have no doubt that you or others might react differently in the same situation, not necessarily better, just differently. I am completely comfortable with the decisions that were made at the contigency, council, and national level, in this particular situation. Since it is the BSA's program, and a BSA activity, and the BSA was in on the decision, then I see no point in questioning what took place, especially considering it was 23 years ago.

Understand that I was not the leader of the unit nor was I the the scout executive, so while I had input I did not make the final decision. We were on the road in another state when the contraband was discovered and there was no way that the trip was going to be altered for the other two bus loads of scouts who followed the rules because of two that did not. The decision was made by the Scoutmaster and the council executive, and supported by the council jambo leadership team, that the scouts would not be allowed to participate in any further activities of the trip and that the parents would be required to remove their children from the unit within 48 hours or they would be turned over to the military police at Fort AP Hill. The Jamboree director was informed of the incident and agreed to the action plan. We are not police officers and are not trained in what each state's laws are concerning what quantities of marijuana are considered misdemeanor and what are felonies. We are scout leaders, and the rules we are trained in say that these drugs are not allowed on scout property or at scout activities, and that possession of them under those conditions are a violation of BSA safety policies. Our Jamboree rules stated that possession of such drugs, alcohol, or fireworks would result in the youth being sent home with no refund of fees. The two scouts chose not to follow the rules, so we did what we said we would do. There was no confusion. The two scouts that broke the rules were punished, the 70 scouts that followed the rules did not have their trip interrupted. My concern was not for what was best for the two with the drugs but for the 70 good scouts, and what was best for them was to be free of the burden of the other two. The parents can worry about them, and should.

"Are they not better to judge the wants and needs of the youth served..." Germ, that is not the role of the council executive board. Sven, as you have admitted in your opening post you know very little about the structure and role of the various levels of the Council Committee. Perhaps before you determine the potential value you would bring to the committee you should first obtain the refernece materials that were recommended to you and learn what the committees actually do? Once you understand the role of the various Concil administrative levels you might have a different veiw of your involvement in it at this point of your development. But until you know more about it how can you make a reasonable determination?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is not the youths' role to run a scout council or most unit programs. What national corporation can anyone name that is run by youth? Nor is it mandatory to have a lot of money to be on a council board. The council, especially the council executive committee, does not deal with program decisions, they make business decisions for the corporation. That requires people with strong business knowledge. Good business people seem to make a good income...go figure. Lots of those folks also have a college education...who would of thunk it? A good way to prepare for service on the executive board of ANY corporation is to get a good education and get some business experience. Serving on a council committee is no different. It's not a "go away kid" approach. It's a "hope you had a great time as a youth in scouts, go practice what you learned while you get an adults education, and if you choose to retun in a few years you will be better prpared to serve others as an adult" approach. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

My point Eamonn was that what is "in the best interest of the scout" will depend on who you are in relation to the scout. I doubt the scout will see your turning him over to the police as being "in his best interest". He would probably rather that you chose to give him a concerned look and another scoutmasters conference. I believe that having the parents come get their child , regardless of how inconvenient to them it may have been, was in the best interst of the the scouts involved as well as the other scouts on the trip. The parents I can tell you did not feel the same way. What is best for the scout who endangers others is rarely a primary concern. My primary concern is for those he puts at risk who were following the rules. And while the BSA does tell you to expect that some youth will experiment they also make it quite clear in the safety policies of the BSA that it is not to happen on scout property or during a scouting activity. What was in the best interest of the scout would have been for him to live by the values that the program and its leaders tried to instill in him, rather than choose to ignore and disobey them. The appropriate response is that the youth understand that there are serious consequences when you make seriously bad choices. We should care enough for the scout not to take such inappropriate behavior lightly, lest he should think that what he did was unimportant, leading him to make larger and even more inappropriate choices.

Personally I have no problem with a youth who leaves for college and focuses on their studies for a few years. Scouting was around long before they were born, it is likely to be be waiting for them still after they get their college education. You don't need to be in scouting to remember the lessons you learned in Scouting. College is the time for focusing on being in college. Change the world afterwards.

"Appropriate Consequence is what is in the best interest of the Scout." I would strongly disagree with that statement. What is in the best interest of the scout will differ with each parties point of view. I guarantee that the time we had parents drive over 1000 miles to remove their scouts from National Jamboree for bringing marijuana on the trip, neither the parents or the scouts felt that our actions or the punishment awaiting them was in their best interest. However what we did was in the best interest of the other scouts in our protection, and it was best for the council we represented. "Appropriate" is responding in a way that is legal and controlled by existing rules and procedures. Criminals are usually punished according to what is in the best interest of society. not the best interest of the criminal. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just curious One Hour. When he physically hurt another scout and you reported the incident to the Council Scout Executive, as required by the Youth Protection Policies of the BSA, what action did the council take or recommend you take at the time? When you reported the drug usage at a scout activity to the council, what action did they take or recommend?

That is a decision for the Council and the Charter organization to deal with. After all it was their rules he violated not yours. The Scout violated the law, he violated a BSA policy, he violated his Oath, he endangered the assets of the charter organization. His confession changes none of those things does it? Given a scale that had "Give the Scout a medal for confessing" at one end, and "remove his membership in scouting" at the other end, toward which end of the scale would you find your opinion?

There is the "Council" the "Council Executive Board" and the "Council Executive Committee of the Executive Board". To understand each and their roles and responsibilities I would recommend you read two publications. The Council #33071 and the Orientation Guide for Council Officers and Executive Board Members #33161. Age limit is in most cases 18 or older however the council has the ability to pass their own rules to make exceptions for positions such as the OA Chief who in some councils sits on the council committee in some capacity.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Choosing a number at random is unlikely to yield results that will lead to functioning patrols unless you are just really really lucky. You need each scout to give a a list a three other scouts they would like toi be in a patrol with. Then you can graph those choices and create two patrols that will be composed largely of scouts who want to be together. Fiorat though I would have them elect an SPL and let him select an ASPL. Then the scouts can choose their patrol teams. Why have an SPL at this point? Because a troop is formed when patrols gather. You have more than one patrol so you have the need for troop junior leadership. Next, I would have a recruitment contest to try and get both patrols up to 7 or 8 members.

I can teach you how to tie your shoes without ever using the words shoe. To suggest that you can judge how well a topic is taught by selecting a word and counting how often it is used is just silly. Basic traiuning is just that....basic. The "Patrol Method" itdels of less about the role of the Patrol Leader (that is found in the explaination of the Youth Leadership Method) and is more about underetanding that operating in small groups or gangs is a natural part of social development for boys at this age group. UInderstanding these social characteristics explains why we use patrols, why groups of 6 to 8 work best, why and how leaders are selected, what keeps the group together, how the gfroup develops and other aspects of the patrol operations. Ic everything you need taught in basic training? Nope, and it never was. That is why there are supplementary and advanced training opportunities available through the BSA. It is also why units need to select the right people for the Scoutmaster position. If the people chosen do not already exhibit an understanding of dealing positively with youth at the stages they will be working with in the Troop, or do not exhibit an aptitude for learning and understancding these characterisitics, then it is unlikely that they will develop as leaders to the extent that others will or at the reate that others will. Some leaders pick up an understanding of the Patrol Method and Youth Leadership very quickly. Others can be in Scouting for many years and never quite grasp it. It takes more that just the BSa teaching it, it takes an adult willing to accept and practice it.

Don If you are interested in taking advanced leadership training then I recommend you attend Wood Badge. Your perceptions of what you have seen others do is not a representation of the course materials but of how those individuals have chosen to interpret the information. This is more a reflection of their personal characteristics and is largely influened by aspects of their personalities and beliefs. They are not representative of the actual content or goals of the course. Might some councils not follow the syllabus? Sure that is a possibility. I have been on staff on several courses and the responsibility of the staff has always been to follow the syllabus and do what is needed to make the course benefit the individual needs of each participant. The participant writes their own ticket. I have never been on a course when the staff used the tickets to get work done for the district or coucil unless it was a goal selected by a participant who worked at the district or council level. Why a Bear den leader would have a ticket that addressed anything other than growing as a den leader is beyong me. I can tell you that the two most common problem I see when evaluating tickets is that people tend to want to use leadership skills to change others when they should be working to change themselves, and people tend to want to change things that they have no control over. A goal does not need to be about changing something that is already being done, but to set and achieve goals through the application of good leadership skills.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would disagree that the Cubmaster needs to know the details of what a Den Leader does in order to do the job of a Cubmaster. They have different jobs so they need different information. A Cubmaster needs to know how to lead a good Pack meeting, not how to do good Den meetings. The Den leader needs to know how to do a good Den meeting and know that they will also be involved in pack meetings. Just as a pack committee chair needs to understand the details of managing a committee not the details of leading a Den meeting. There are of course some overlaps of information but all they need to know is that overlap. Here is what every cubmaster should have within the first 90 days of taking the office. Cub Scout FastStart New Leader Essentials Cubmaster Leader Specific Training Youth Protection That's about 6 hours of training for years of future service. All the other courses that John listed are for other folks in other jobs.

Is the troop worth saving? That is a decision only the charter organization head can make. The scout troop is a service activity of the CO and whether it continues or not is up to the organization head. Is the program worth doing correctly? Yes it is, but that will only happen based on the skills and integrity of the adults selected to lead it. In order for one person to successfully alter the direction of the unit you need to be in one of two positions, either the charter organization head or the charter organization representative. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

At the moment I cannot think of any other uniformed organization that wears the same clothing for formal as well as work situations. While I understand the attempt by those who designed the new uniform to try and appease those who complained (it was difficult not to say 'whined') about the current uniform being a dress uniform and not being designed for use in the outdoors. But I think it will prove that you cannot be all things to all people. There is good reasoning behind having a dress uniform and a work uniform, I say that as a leader in a BSA program that does that very thing. There are elements of a dress uniform that are not functional in an activity application and vice-versa. The "new" uniform makes a great effort to use fabrics that are better suited for the some of the outdoor activities of scouting, but it retains features of the dress uniform that do not lend themselves to outdoor activities. A case in point is the shoulder epaulets and loops. No experienced backpacker would select a shirt with shoulder do-dads for backpacking. And the balloon pockets, which just begged to be filled, will not be comfortable under the shoulder straps of a pack. At least the sleeve pocket is a nice backpack feature as it allows for easy access while backpacking, however as some have pointed out its location will means that you will no longer wear the same type of anniversary recognition and many councils will need to redo their oversized council strips. I noticed there is a loop under the left pocket, perhaps a new type of recognition for the Arrow of Light will hang there? The colors are not bad at all and the overall look of the uniform is not that different from the current one. Again to think that the same clothing can be a formal uniform and a work uniform defies logic. In trying to appease everyone I think the designers forced themselves to retain some features that will not work formally and some that are not functional recreationally.